Newbie looking for a friend

[Biodragen]

Hi all,
I was directed here since I live in the area.
Sorry for the log winded msg.

I live 10 miles west of Crytal Lake in Harvard. I have tons of questions and looking for someone to take me under their wings per say. I have been getting advice in RC today and already have put them to good use. I also plan on intending the confrence in May in Woodfield.

I could use someone experienced to TRUST and talk to on the phone if need be and even get together and BS for a while...even BBQ at my house or go have a beer.

I am seriously into this and need guidence. Apparently there is so many ways to do this and it has changed over the years. I tried this ten years ago with cycling with damsels and did the same thing again in todays times.
This I find frustrating not knowing who's way is the right and best way.

I want to do a reef with soft corals and annenomies with live rock and fish. My goal is to have it like this by Thanksgiving.

I am enjoying what I have now just playing...it is lowering my blood preassure...hehe

Here is the low down for equipment and etc....
55gal tank
Wet\dry up to 75 gal with built in protein skimmer
UV sterlizer
Wave master pro with 2 power heads
240watts of blue and day tinic lighting comming soon
22 lbs of live rock
Crushed florida coral for substrate
Some bleached coral
1 Blue Damsel
3 Percula clowns

10 gal tank on the side for a sick tank.
All built into a closet in my Family room. I plan on being around a while.

Amm 0.25, Nitrite 0.5, Nitrate 20 low, Salinity is 1.022, Temp is 74*, PH 8.4, Alk is 7

Aquarim manager software to log all testing that has been done this past week.

I have also been trying to find out if a calcuim reator is in order for me to consider getting.

My e-mail is biodragen@yahoo.com..lets swap PH# and hook up.


Brian

[Papajin]

I am seriously into this and need guidence. Apparently there is so many ways to do this and it has changed over the years. I tried this ten years ago with cycling with damsels and did the same thing again in todays times.

As you say, there is no right way. Even if you find someone to help guide you, it won't be the "right way". It'll simply be the way that particular person prefers. There's a number of ways to setup a tank and have it work well. All reefers have their own preferences, though.

My personal recommendation more than anything is to sit back for a month or two and read everything about setting up a reef tank here on RC and anyplace else you can find that has good info. Look at pictures of people's setups. Pay attention to the comments they and others have made about them (pros and cons). After a bit of time of doing this, you get a good idea what works and what doesn't. Eventually you can start to pick out methods of building a tank that suit your purposes until you're able to form a solid gameplan of your own from the information you've gathered.

Put in the time researching, and you'll have a good chance at a successful reef tank! :)

[Biodragen]

Put in the time researching, and you'll have a good chance at a successful reef tank!

That is exactly what I have been doing for several weeks. It does get overwhelming with so much info and then comes what do I do.

I understand everybody has a way and there is no know right or correct way. Mostly I am looking for some persons close to home to have conversations with and maybe help me in troubleshooting and so forth.

I am in the stage of cycling with some clowns and have had folks state to me it is cruel to the fish. I also have had some tell me to cycle using live rock. Here is a compromise I made by doing both methods together. I figure how could I go wrong but that is an understatement...everything can go wrong quickly.
I have read books that have been around a while and have been told they are outdated. My thought is the equipment is more outdated than today but the info would seem to still apply to today.

I am pretty much looking for several folks to talk to.
Right now my levels are on the high side and I keep getting told (equally) to do a 10% water change and vise versa not to.
Problem lies with who you can trust...I look for the experience.. that has to stand for something.
Most advise is trial and error...some I know may work for me and some won't.
I agree with yours and have not stopped. For that is one reason I am in here today. Reasrching and hopefully make some friends along the way.

Brian

Brian

[makoshark]

Hello Brian,

I would first of all encourage you to Join the Chicagoland Marine Aquarist Society. You'll meet plenty of people and perhaps find a mentor whom lives in your area. I would also encourage you to pick up Dr. Ron Shimek's Book The Coral Reef Aquarium : An Owner's Guide To A Happy Healthy Fish (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1582451176/qid=1048520210/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-1845516-5624624?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). It will be the best ten bucks you'll spend in this hobby.

If I may, I'd like to point out a few things that I've noticed right away might be an issue. I am by no means an expert but having both worked in decent pet store and dabbling in the hobby on and off for a few years I don't mind sharing what I've learned thus far.

I don't know how long you have had your tank set up but your bio-load seems to be a little high for my liking. You have a 55 gal tank. A 55 gal tank can hold one inch of fish per 5 gallons. Your tank can hold a maximum of 15 inches of fish if you have 75 gallons of water including the sump. That would apply to a fully establisheed tank and that does not allow for water displaced by your crushed coral or live rock. I'm guessing that each of the fish you have in your tank are at least an inch each meaning you have 4 of the 15 inches used up. You are over 25% bioload on a tank that sounds like it is still cycling. That does not include your live rock which is also cycling. In my opinion you are full throttle on your way to a tank crash. I'd do a little more than a 10% water change, at least 20% but that's me.

Gotta run, but I also wanted to ask if you have bio-balls in your wet/dry system?

TTYL

[Biodragen]

Thanks for the heads up.
The book is an intrest and will check it out.
I do have bioballs in my wet dry.
I was already planning on a 10% water change today. I mixed water and let it sit a room temp and to be sure all salt has dissolved.
See this is the problem I keep coming acrossed and makes it difficult about starting a tank. My fish actually seem to be ok. My Percula Clowns are hungry and eating and swimming around like nothing is wrong. Clowns are very friendly when by the tank, not skiddish at all. My Damsel seems to be the loner but eating and keep to himself but I think that is the territorial part.

My levels are stable as they are now, nothing is going up or down. When I do the WC I know there might be some change. I also turned on my skimmer....nasty yellow water. I have about 8oz in a bottle from starting yesterday.

As for Chicagoland Marine Aquarist Society
Where do I go for this to become a member. I plan on going to IMAC in may with a friend of mine.

One other question and that is...power outages and the overflow ads well as sump.
How do I prevent the overflow from working in the event of a power outage. The pump will not work to return the water but the overflow will continue to siphon water?
Any equipment ideas would be a great help.

Brian

[makoshark]

Brian,

Sorry for taking a while to get back to you. I've been a little busy both at work and home lately. Let me also apologize for the length of this post.

Going back through this post I wanted to touch on a few items.

Having experienced a tank crash firsthand back in the late eightys and most recently watching my Stepfather experience his system crash, I know for a fact that you can take anything that you know about freshwater fish and throw it out the window. Saltwater is a whole new ballgame. With that said, remember that I said that I worked in a pet shop, heck I even belonged to a freshwater aquarium club for a few years. I took what I knew about freshwater and tried to apply it to saltwater with disasterous results. My fish were happly, healthy and eating the night before the crash. The next morning I turned on the lights and every living thing was dead.

Oddly enough after the devistatoin of my tank crash I left the system alone for almost a year, only adding freshwater to top it off. I finaly reached the point where I had to either start over or tear down the tank. I bought one damsel to see if the tank would support life. The Damsel lived. Six weeks later I bought a Clown. It lived too. From then on out I added a fish every six weeks until I reached the maximum amount of fish that the tank could hold. The tank was a 55 gal. with crushed coral on top of undergravel filters with powerheads. I did water changes every two weeks pulling waste out of the undergravel system. The tank lasted for years. I finally grew tired of the now 6" damsel, 4" clown and the rest of the fish that I had in the tank and sold them back to the pet shop where I used to work.

The reason told you that story is because you will find plenty of people in this hobby that will tell you things like you can use crushed coral with undergravel filters and have a successful tank. Back then I knew nothing about the true nature of the Nitrogen cycle. In my case I was lucky(well, the second time around). Can you get lucky in this hobby? Sometimes, but not very often and usually only after experiancing total devistation and trying again. Would I recommend this to anyone else? No way! I lost a lot of nice fish the in the crash.

Later in life after I was no longer moving from apartment to apartment and bought my house, I decided to rejoin the saltwater hobby. I left my tank empty for three months while I read, researched, went to CMAS meetings. (CMAS.NET by the way, email jbash@uic.edu to join) I too found many different opinions both here and in books I read. However, I think that you will be hard pressed to find anyone in this hobby that will argue with Dr. Ron Shimek and the folks whom have successful reef tanks follow his teachings.

Once I was finally comfortable that I had a handle on things I bought my Southdown Sand, RO/DI kit and started setting up my 55 Gal. Tank again. I cycled my tank with two fresh shrimp that I picked up at the Jewell seafood counter. The decomposing shrimp generate ammonia and provide the bacteria needed to convert the ammonia to Nitrite. The Nitrite converts to Nitrate and if you have anerobic bacteria in places like a Deep Sand Bed and/or live rock the anerobic bacteria converts the Nitrate to an innert gas found all over the earth known as Nitrogen gas. Most of this can be found in chapter two of Dr Shimek's book.

I went to the trouble of telling you all that because from what I have learned thus far a lot of your equipment is like my old undergravel system. The philosophy of saltwater systems have changed conciderably since the days of crushed coral, UV sterilizers, wet/dry systems and cycling with damsels.

Not too long ago the Wet/Dry system was the best known way to help break down waste in the Saltwater aquarium. Now if you post in the new to the hobby forum that you have Bio-balls the first thing everyone tells you is to get rid of them they are a nitrate farm. Meaning that there is no way for the nitrate to conert to nitrogen gas and forcing you to do frequent water changes to export the excess nutrient. Otherwise you'll experience exponential algea growth. If you have crushed coral, get rid of it. The particle sizes of crshed coral don't allow for the growth and colinization of anerobic bacteria to convert your Nitrite to Nitrogen gas. If you want a fish only tank with live rock (FOWLR) you may be okay but if you want to house corals you'll find that the algea that is growing in your tank is killing of all of your corals.

A UV sterilizer tends to kill off more of the good organisms than the bad ones.

With all that I have written I hope that I can encourage you to read Dr. Ron's book and discourage you from making compomises like you did with your idea to use fish and live rock to cycle the tank. Take things very slow. I'm shure you've seen posts that say "nothing good happens fast in a reef tank". I would encourage you once you have read the book to post questions in the new to the hobby forum and challenge anyone who tells you something different from what you've read in Dr. Ron's book.

BTW In regards to your overflow what kind is it. I have a CPR and I know that it can't take in water once the water line drops to a certain point. The trick is to allow for that extra volume in your sumps water line.

Hope all that helps and I welcome any other members to correct me where I'm wrong. I'll only stop learning when I die.

[Biodragen]

Wow alot was said. my turn hehe!!

Actually I finally was able to talk with a RC menber here last night.
I ended up getting a better protein skimmer since mine was a cheep cruddy one not doing much. SO after reaserch and reading posts I picked up the AQAU c EV120 with a Mag 5. It has good reviews form what I gathered but it is far better than what I have now. Secondly I plan on getting a RO unit this weekend. That alone I was also told is a big plus for me and will help me out considerably. I have power compact lighting that is 240 watts wich I think would be enought to sustain the softies and some fish. I also removed the bio balls last night and added 35lb of live rock. I will add another 15lbs when I get home. it was too late to finish last night. I check the fish this morning and all were still doing great..sleepy but good.
I also bought the book you mentioned and I should be getting that in a week.

I have the patience to do this and now that I have been in here and actually spoke to someone I am alot more clear on what to do. I did this 12 years ago and those methods are way old.
The one thing is I wished I didn't but the WETDRY. I could have just used something from rubber made to get the same affect with alot less expense. I will find a use for it down the road.
After all this my next piece of equipment I would like to get after explanations of it is a calcuim reactor(later down the road). I was told it is a luxry item but once you get it you will be happy but for now I can do things the cheap way.

I also learned the the DIY stuff is not always agood thing, you could end up spending 3/4 of that on building it and then have to tinker with it all the time verses buying it straight out set it up and do very little tinkering.

I now will be meeting ppl in my area and start seeing other tanks and how they are done, this I know is very educational and I may be able to incororate some other ppls ideas for my tank.
I would like to say this is a great place for reaserch and advice. Better than most that I have been to. YOU have been a great help to me. I will be checking out a tank this weekend.

Thanks
Brian

[makoshark]

Brian,

Again I apologize for the lenght of my post, but you don't tell someone that their equipment is outdated without telling them why. I took the liberty of reading between the lines a little. I was hoping that you hadn't just purchased all that equipment new.

If you have the money to buy new equipment, by all means do it. It sounds like you have a good skimmer I've heard nothing but good things about the EV120. It's a little pricey for me and I'm going to build my own skimmer but that's me. I want the quiet and air driven skimmer vs the noise of a motor driven skimmer. I also have the space for a 4' tube behind my tank and a book on how to properly design it.

I think that once you read Shimek's book you'll find that the calcium reactor is not as big of a deal. From what I've learned Kalkwasser will do just as well for the size of our tanks. Calcium reactors are suggested for tanks over 100 gallons because of the expense. However if you have the funds, go for it.

Good Luck!

[Biodragen]

No problem with long posts..it is captivating.

It is not that my epuipment is outdated as far as my Wet dry goes. With taking out the bio balls it just seemed to be a waste on $$$ verses just making a sump and use a pump and a good skimmer. I could have saved me $200 plus dollars. I have seen alot of photos using this method. Mostly for larger set ups.
Most of what I have is all new with exeption to my crushed coral.
Right now equipment from what I have learned is important to having a good long living reef system. I figure if I am going to get into it I may as well get started right and not one piece at a time or a rigging job.
Eventually I do plan on going bigger and that is also what I keep in mind when getting equipment. But where I have my tank space is also and issue...I do have a pic of in this forum with out the W\D.

From what I've learned Kalkwasser will do just as well

This is what I have been told by more than one person but added to that it would be a great help if I do plan on going bigger which I would like to.

Don't get me wrong but your advise has been helpful.

As for the funds....well I sell Lego's on line and have a small shop in a community similar to this one but for legos.

That is what is financing all of this and does pretty good I might add. Check it out if you want. www.bricklink.com

And again thank you for the time and tips
Hope to hear from you again.
Brian