Salt Analysis Project

[postenje]

Received this e-mail today. Same idea I was discussing in another thread.

http://www.inlandreef.net/saanprdo.html

Jeff

[rshimek]

Hi,

I don't follow links, sorry. If it pertains to my article, write it out, here.

[postenje]

Doesn't pertain to anything you said. They are going to do a salt analysis for most common salts.

Jeff

[rshimek]

Originally posted by postenje

Hi Jeff,

Doesn't pertain to anything you said. They are going to do a salt analysis for most common salts.

I didn't mean to be rude, but with answering on the order of 30 to 50 posts a day, I can only keep track thread and responses if I work in my own forums.

I think the salt project has some serious problems. Most of these have been pointed out in the replies to my earlier ICP studies. This method of analysis has detection limits that are much higher than the levels of many of these chemicals in NSW. So, the study will report the chemical as not detectable, when it fact, it could be there in signficant excess.

They talk of part per trillion detection, but many trace metals are found in part per quadrillion or septillion concentrations. - There really isn't much of these there, normally.

Also the detection limits are not the same for all elements, so the data will be hard to compare in that regard.

It will at best generate some interesting data. But, one can't really use the data for anything but supposition.

Finally, collection of sea water and doing analysis some time and some distance later will not give useful data as changes in the NSW occur with time.

These are just some of the problems. There are others.

So... I will be watching from the sidelines, and keeping my wallet closed.

:D

[postenje]

understand you are a very popular person, especially right now...

I do think there will be something gained by the report. We will know what's in our salt mixes.

Step number one is to determine what is in our salt.

Step number two is determining what's in NSW

Step three is figuring out what is toxic and what is okay even in huge overdoses.

Step four is choosing the best compromise.

Jeff

[rshimek]

Originally posted by postenje

Hi Jeff,

I do think there will be something gained by the report. We will know what's in our salt mixes.

No, you won't, the analytical method chosen isn't precise enough.

I would suggest the following as a more reasonable approach:

Test the most popular salts with a complete bioassay screen (In other words, find out which one are toxic and which ones are not).

Then examine those that are toxic and samples of those that are not to see what differs and see if the differences are due to known toxicants.

This way, you'd know which salts would work and which wouldn't....and why, and there would be no quesswork.

:D

[postenje]

"No, you won't, the analytical method chosen isn't precise enough."

I must not be understanding something then. How is that the salt manufacturers list specs on their salt?

How do we find what salts are made of if their is no measurement accurate enough? How do salt manufactures actually make their salt if they can't control the qauntities of the minerals?

One could argue that doing tests on urchins would be useless as that data could only be guarenteed to be accurate for that species tested.

Jeff

[rshimek]

Originally posted by postenje

Hi,

I must not be understanding something then. How is that the salt manufacturers list specs on their salt?

They analyze them with other methods.

How do we find what salts are made of if their is no measurement accurate enough?

There are methods available. Just not the one chosen for the "salt analysis project." These other methods have one major drawback, they cost a whole lot more. But, then, as in most things, you get what you pay for.

How do salt manufactures actually make their salt if they can't control the qauntities of the minerals?

They can. They pass the cost on to us.

One could argue that doing tests on urchins would be useless as that data could only be guarenteed to be accurate for that species tested.

Fortunately, through over 30 years worth of tests resulting in thousands of other tests, we know that that is not the case.

[postenje]

... :confused:

jeff

[fayzane]

Dr. Ron, really enjoyed your article on synthetic mixes! One question though...if one was to switch to the mixes that more closely resemble seawater, would that necessitate more careful monitoring of levels such as calcium, iodine, and strontium, ect.? Natural sea water has lower concentrations, and in our closed system it would get used up more quickly?

Have you done any studies on this particular question? If not, would it be acceptable practice for me to set up two small marine tanks using say, the marine bioassay mix in one and Coralife in the other. I would set up both tanks identically, stock with identical types/levels of live rock, sand and marine life (corals included) and weekly test levels of components such as calcium, iodine and strontium to determine if the bioassay mix nutrients are depleted more quickly or not. Would that work? I dont have access to equipment that would test for the other components you described, but would be fascintated to know the answer to this question if you have it!!:D

[rshimek]

Originally posted by fayzane

Hi,

Dr. Ron, really enjoyed your article on synthetic mixes! One question though...if one was to switch to the mixes that more closely resemble seawater, would that necessitate more careful monitoring of levels such as calcium, iodine, and strontium, ect.?

You need to monitor calcium in any case. Strontium is a defined poison (it has been shown conclusively to reduce calcification rates in corals) and will not get used by any aquarium animals except to sequester it so that it doesn't harm them and iodine, also poisonous, is used in such small amounts that its monitoring is inconsequential. Additionally, these and other minor elements would more than supplemented by feeding.

Have you done any studies on this particular question?

Indirectly, this is addressed in the article in the December [rk]. We never - ever- have to worry about having too little of these materials. The problem is always going to be, "How to get rid of the excess?"

[RSomner]

SO when it all boils down to it, which salt mix is the best known for our reef tanks currenty? WHere do I buy em if they arent common to the LFS?

[rshimek]

Originally posted by RSomner

Hi,

[welcome]

SO when it all boils down to it, which salt mix is the best known for our reef tanks currenty?

Either of the two salts that showed the best survival in my present article in [rk] is probably about the best we can do. Personally, I prefer the Marinemix Bioassay Formulation.

WHere do I buy em if they arent common to the LFS?

There are several threads in my "Ask Dr. Ron" forum that give links to online vendors. You will have to do a bit of searching. Aquatic Ecosystems handles the Marinemix Bioassay formulation, the Bioseas mix is available from several places.