My thoughts about salts article

[marietrg]

Ron, first of all thanks for your efforts to help improve our hobby.
I wrote some of my thoughts below. I would be interested in hearing comments from you or anyone else.

1) I thought you went to far when you claimed that some of the salts were "toxic" and "poision". What I took away from your work that was that natural sea water and the Crystal Sea Marine Mix were superior to Instant Ocean and Coralife for facilitating growth in the marine environment. Maybe NSW and the marinemix had something the others didn't that helped facilitate growth. To me toxicity and poisoning imply cell lysis and death. Instant Ocean and Coralife may not be the optimum salt mix for growth however aquatic life doesn't start floating when you add it to your tank.

2) You didn't make any kind of disclosure statement in the paper (Do you have any investments in or have you ever worked for any of the companies in question?)

3) Have you or anyone else heard a response from the companies that make Instant Ocean or Coralife? I would be interested to hear what their take is.

4) Does Reef Keeping magazine require any kind of peer review process before publication?

[rshimek]

Originally posted by marietrg

Hi

To me toxicity and poisoning imply cell lysis and death.

Yes, this is what happened. The bottom of the IO and Coralife beakers were littered with dead eggs. They were killed, not growing more slowly.

Instant Ocean and Coralife may not be the optimum salt mix for growth however aquatic life doesn't start floating when you add it to your tank.

Actually, there are lots of anecdotal reports of sea stars dying within minutes of being put into Coralife salt. See the archives of Fishnet on CompuServe for a lot of them. Water made from IO has been known amongst embryologists for years as being toxic to embryonic life in general. Things simply will not survive in it.

2) You didn't make any kind of disclosure statement in the paper

And you didn't make any when you posted here. When was the last time you saw a disclosure statement in any aquarium magazine?

(Do you have any investments in or have you ever worked for any of the companies in question?)

No investments. Within the last 3 years, I have published one article in Sea Scope (published by Aquarium Systems, I think) as well as three articles in a quarterly publication produced by the company that makes Coralife salt.

3) Have you or anyone else heard a response from the companies that make Instant Ocean or Coralife? I would be interested to hear what their take is.

Well, I haven't heard anything yet. If I hear something that seems to be relevent to any public argument, I may post it.

4) Does Reef Keeping magazine require any kind of peer review process before publication?

There is a board of editors, and this article was reviewed by the regular editors and one outside reviewer. Additionally, I am revising it for submission to a peer-reviewed professional journal, as a note.

[marietrg]

How about a little less stronger wording like:

"The results suggest that IO and Coralife are toxic to sealife specifically sea urchin larvae. The heavy metal content of these 2 salts may be a causitive factor in the toxicity. This finding is alarming however more definitive studies should be conducted to further investigate the findings before avoiding purchase of these products."

I don't have any relationship with the companies either directly or indirectly:)

[rshimek]

Originally posted by marietrg

Hi,

How about a little less stronger wording like:

"The results suggest that IO and Coralife are toxic to sealife specifically sea urchin larvae. The heavy metal content of these 2 salts may be a causitive factor in the toxicity. This finding is alarming however more definitive studies should be conducted to further investigate the findings before avoiding purchase of these products."

I don't have any relationship with the companies either directly or indirectly:)

Fine, do some tests and write up your results like this if you wish. :D

[IndyMathWizard]

Dr. Ron

I ALWAYS read your article in RK. I'm a statistician by trade, and was fully impressed with your analysis at the end. VERY well written. A few follow up questions:
1) Do you mean to imply malicious or purposefully irresponsible actions by the less-than-stellar salt-mix companies? If so, can't you get in trouble for that?
2) Some of the biology was a little fuzzy for me, but should we gather from this research that we need to go out and buy Bio-Sea Marinemix? I keep a FO right now....is this REALLY an issue worth worrying about?
3) I teach a stats for bio-majors course, and I've never encountered a biologist with a grasp of stats equal to yours. Are you for real?;)

Again, great work as always and phooey on those who want you to *****-foot around your conclusions just to appease the taller skyscraper.

[rshimek]

Originally posted by IndyMathWizard

Hi,

1) Do you mean to imply malicious or purposefully irresponsible actions by the less-than-stellar salt-mix companies? If so, can't you get in trouble for that?

I don't mean to imply any malicious or purposefully irresponsible behavior here. My impression is that the effects I found were an artifact of the particular mixes. I think the heavy metals are very minor impurities in the various salt components. Unfortunately, these very low concentrations still are in excess of limits that cause harm to animals. But, I think that would overlooked if one didn't have a background in either invertebrate toxicology, environmental consulting or embryology. In other words, I think the salt manufacturers simply presumed the salts were on the safe side - after all they all will support some animals just fine for at least a reasonable period. It is only when one starts to look at the more delicate animals or potenial reproduction that problems become apparent, and that hasn't been done much.

2) Some of the biology was a little fuzzy for me, but should we gather from this research that we need to go out and buy Bio-Sea Marinemix? I keep a FO right now....is this REALLY an issue worth worrying about?

Yes, I think it is an issue to worry about, particularly if one is keeping delicate animals. Maybe it is not a factor for FO tanks, however, it is worth noting that all of the chemicals that cause problems in invertebrates, also cause problems in vertebrates, it just takes longer for them to manifest themselves. That having been said, I think the issue is more critical for aquarists trying to keep some of the corals and other invertbrates than for someone who is just interested in fish.

3) I teach a stats for bio-majors course, and I've never encountered a biologist with a grasp of stats equal to yours. Are you for real?;)

Damm, I hope so. :D I got my doctorate from the University of Washington Zoology Department some 25 years ago, and those of us in the ecology program generally took a lot of grad-level stat courses; we had to, often it was the only way to make sense of complex and very messy data gathered from natural systems. With some luck, every now and then I still remember a bit of it.

Statistics is a fascinating discipline and, of course, ecology and evolutionary studies are really a marriage of biology and stats. Fun stuff, really!

:D

[Malcolm_C]

Hello Dr Ron

I just wanted to thank you for all the research you’ve done in the past few years since I’ve been a part of this hobby. You have allowed me to take your information for what it is “research� and form my own opinion of it. Since you never attempted to sell me anything it enforces your opinion with me even more. In the future if you require funds (I may not have much to give) to help others and myself to become better reef keepers just send me an email, so I can help contribute to the hobby

Malcolm
Mad_drama@msn.com

[rshimek]

Hi Malcom,

Thanks for the generous offer of aid :) . I will definitely keep it in mind.

[Amigo1080]

research such as what was done will hopefully lead to better products being available to us. I used to always use coralife in a fish only tank with no noticeable effect but I did lose a few fish, never knew exactly why.

[bimmer99]

Dr. Ron,

I was highly dissapointed to see your response to marietrg's very valid set of questions.

The fact is, this hobby is full of "experts" who's main audience is composed of hobbiests who often lack proper training in biosciences and in critically reviewing research. Words of "experts" are usually accepted as fact and all too often, this breeds fertile ground for continual propagation of flawed ideology. Add to that the financial implications of condemning a certain product while promoting an another, the potential for investigator bias is greater in this type of environment than in any other.

I agree with all that you have contributed alot to this hobby. But, obviously, you certainly expected this topic to be controversial as many many people (scientists and hobbiests alike) have had fantastic results over many years by using other more "toxic" salts such as instant ocean. The scientic review process as you very well know, looks suspiciously upon new studies that goes against past experience/success. Rightly so, as the findings of years of experience should supercede a new/greatest novel study until that new study is subject to rigorous review.

I hope your study is considered for publication in a respected peer review journal and that it'll stimulate more research into this area. But as it stands, all I can conclude from your non-controlled study is that in your limited study with urchin larvae, you obtained better result with Marinemix. Whether this translates to better success with reef tanks (coral-invert-fish growth/health) remains speculative.

Now, for all you people here who are thinking of dumping your buckets of IO, let me know, I'll be glad to take them off your hands =)





[QUOTE]Originally posted by rshimek

2) You didn't make any kind of disclosure statement in the paper

And you didn't make any when you posted here. When was the last time you saw a disclosure statement in any aquarium magazine?

(Do you have any investments in or have you ever worked for any of the companies in question?)

No investments. Within the last 3 years, I have published one article in Sea Scope (published by Aquarium Systems, I think) as well as three articles in a quarterly publication produced by the company that makes Coralife salt.

3) Have you or anyone else heard a response from the companies that make Instant Ocean or Coralife? I would be interested to hear what their take is.

Well, I haven't heard anything yet. If I hear something that seems to be relevent to any public argument, I may post it.

[QUOTE]