A warning about toxicity. A MUST read.

[musicsmaker]

I'm sure most of you have heard about zoanthids being toxic, but I bet you didn't know just how bad they can be. Here is a link to a thread in the general forum, and some info from a website that talks about natural toxins.

Read this (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158663) thread. The guy had a real bad experiance, and lost a good friend. :(

Here (http://www.asanltr.com/newsletter/0...Neurotoxins.htm) is a link to the site that tells about toxins. The quote below is from that site. Palytoxin
The crude ethanol extracts of the Palythoa toxica proved to be so toxic that an accurate LD50 was difficult to determine. More recently, the toxicity has been determined to be 50-100 ng/kg i.p. in mice. The compound is an intense vasoconstrictor; in dogs, it causes death within 5 min at 60 ng/kg. By extrapolation, a toxic dose in a human would be about 4 micrograms. It is the most toxic organic substance known!
Shimizu [27] and Moore [28] published the chemical structure of palytoxin and it was prepared synthetically in 1989 [29,30]. Palytoxin is a fabulously interesting compound, with a bizarre structure and many extraordinary signs (Fig. 6). Palytoxin is a large, very complex molecule with lipophilic and hydrophilic areas. The palytoxin molecule has the longest continuous chain of carbon atoms known to exist in a natural product. In the molecule of palytoxin, C129H223N3O54, 115 of the 129 carbons are in a continuous chain.. There are 54 atoms of oxygen, but only 3 atoms of nitrogen. Another unusual structure of palytoxin is that it contains 64 stereogenic centers, which means that palytoxin can have 264 stereoisomers! Added to this, the double bonds can exhibit cis/trans isomerism, which means that palytoxin can have more than 1021 (one sextilion) stereoisomers! This staggering molecular complexity should indicate the difficult nature of designing a stereocontrolled synthetic strategy that will produce just the one correct (natural) stereocenter out of >1021 possible stereoisomers.
Palytoxin induces powerful membrane depolarization and ionic channeling [31,32]. Palytoxin is a potent hemolysin, histamine releaser, inhibitor of Na/K ATPase, and a cation ionophore [33]. It is also a non-TPA-type tumor promoter [34,35].

[wizardgus®]

I haven't been paying any attention to these threads, I'm sometimes guilty of doing that on something I already know. And I didn't read all 5 pages on the thread with the dog, what a bummer, but let me pass this on. Here is how I got a dose. I picked up a group of Palythoa that my Mithrax had moved to the sand. I found a better location and glued it in place. Then I got out Bourneman's book to double check if I got the location right relative to light. Then I read the toxin warning! Can get in through cuts in your hands...my hands are always cut up. Next morning I could hardly move my hands. It went away by mid-day, but it was disconcerting. I use gloves now.

BTW, if you tire of paying $2.95/pair for arm length aquarium gloves, get your Vet to order you a box of veterinary exam gloves. Same thing only $11/hundred. Be sure to tell him arm length, they're for use on cows and horses so your average pooch and poodle vet may not be familiar with them.

[musicsmaker]

Thanks for the heads up on the gloves. My puppy is due for another trip ot the vets in 2 weeks. I'll give them a call and see if they can get me some of those gloves by that time.

[icebear]

is it possible to losely rubberband them at the wrists to keep the water out? i mean, your arms will still get wet, but your digits will be protected from the toxins- unless your arms also come in direct contact with the zos

[wizardgus®]

icebear,
Not sure what you mean. The ones I'm talking about go all the way up to your armpits. If you mean taking standard length exam gloves and using rubber bands...seems like that would work.

[icebear]

Originally posted by wizardgus
If you mean taking standard length exam gloves and using rubber bands...seems like that would work.

yep, thats what i mean :)

[dellrio]

thanks music maker for helping to spread the word... i never even knew zoos were toxic. i was wandering though are they only a real danger when u handle zoos? or can u still get some of the toxin on yourself if u are dealing with something else in the tank...

[ausnakeguy1]

Seems to be by only contact with the zoos, according to Borneman, and thats with All species of Palythoa and most related spieces to include the Protopalythoa species. Kind of cool when you point to a coral in your tank and you can say that is the most dangerous animal on the planet. :) Kind of niffffty don't ya think.

[Nagel]

dellrio,

I think the point here is that they are PRETTY toxic. I'm not sure if you could be poisoned by touching the water, but its possible (polyps were torn / cut and they release mucuous to the water, and it could enter through a cut on your hand or arm).

I guess the gist is just be CAREFUL when working with them. As a safety precaution I am ordering those full length gloves and will be installing a door to my fishroom to keep MY dog out of there, god forbid he decides to chew on a random polyp I missed...... These things are toxic, and though there are no known human deaths that I can speak of, several people have published that they were poisoned by some pretty peculiar means (Anthony Calfo got hit when he wiped his mouth with a fishroom towel that had been used whil he was fragging earlier in the day). Not exactly one of the ways I would have been wary of, but it shows that there are a few ways to become poisoned by it.....

I also did a search on google for "palytoxin" and had to look at the cached sites to see the data, but here are some quotes:

"Solubility : Very soluble in water. "

"Palytoxins are stable in seawater and lower alcohols"

"Onset of Symptoms : Rapid, with death occurring within minutes "

"Palytoxin acts at the cell membranes to make them permeable to cations - positively charged ions, typically sodium, potassium, and calcium. Many functions of cells depend upon controlling the flow of these ions in and out of the cell, so disrupting this traffic is very dangerous.

At the physiological level, the most sensitive target is the myocardium, or muscular component of the heart, and the primary effect is vasoconstriction or rapid narrowing of blood vessels in the heart and in the lungs. Another effect is hemolysis, or the destruction of the red blood cells. These three effects taken together cut off the oxygen supply and the victim suffocates. "

"Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin. Originally, it was only found in a single tidal pool on the island of Maui in Hawaii and native Hawaiians used to coat spear points with a red seaweed from the pool. Toxin-containing corals appear to be randomly and sparingly distributed throughout the South Pacific and there is now a school of thought that suggests that the coral is simply concentrating the toxin made by a dinoflagellate (a small single-celled organism) called Ostreopis siamensis. "

just food for thought....

[ausnakeguy1]

I think if you died by a Zooanthid poisioning episode that would definatly get you a spot in the Darwin awards. LOL

Local man killed by coral poision. :rollface:

[Shlou]

I've seen a lot on how dangerous this toxin is, but is there any danger of this toxin affecting other corals or fish in the tank? Just curious. If my zoos get upset one day and release toxin could it cause a system crash?

[fins369]

Thank you for everyones' input on this. It is certanly something to think about. Appreciate it.

fins
:fish2:

[kmk2307]

Hi,
I recently discovered this book at my local University Library. It has extensive information on Palytoxin (from zooanthids). There is information about antidotes to palytoxin.

Palytoxin is one of the most potent coronary vasoconstrictors known, producing death by the iv route within minutes by diminishing the supply of oxygen to the myocardium. Tests in animals with a number of vasdilators showed that papaverine and isosorbid dinitrate are effective antidotes, but must be injected directly into the ventricle of the heart because of the speed of the action of the toxin.

Long story short:
papaverine and isosorbid dinitrate are effective antidotes according to this work.

[madness]

Do you have the reference information for that book? I'd like to check it out, too.

[kmk2307]

Hey Madness

Here's the APA citation of the book:

Hall, Sherwood & Strichartz, Gary (1990). Marine Toxins Origin, Structure, and Molecular Pharmacology. Woods Hole, Massachusetts: Published through an interagency agreement between: U.S. Army Medial Research, Institute of Infectious Diseases, The Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

ISBN #: 0-8412-1733-5

Its an awesome book IMHO. The talk about palytoxins, peptide toxins, and general considerations (misc toxins).

HTH,
Kevin

[dcowling]

I just got my first Zoanthids, and had looked over (not read fully) the warnings on toxicity. I used normal latex exam gloves when handling my Zo's and getting ready to place them in the tank. Undoubtedly they are producing as much toxin as possible after a stressful trip, but I was only really concerned about direct contact with them.....

Driving home at lunch my upper arm was burning. I looked at it and about a 3in circle around the very smallest of wounds (where I scratched out an ingrown hair) was very red, raised, and very sensitive to the touch. It persisted for a few hours.

Not deadly toxic....that time, but enough to really get my attention. Should get yours as well.

[lebowski]

That's wierd.

I've been using my hands, just washing good. This stuff sounds freaky.

[musicsmaker]

It's nothing to freak out about, just a word of caution. Letting someone handle these things without knowing would be like handing a loaded gun to someone and telling them it wasn't loaded. Just be careful, that's all.

[Russel]

thank you all for the warning!

I was wondering, if using a latex glove to handle them, is there any concern with the latex particals that would be left in the tank from the gloves? I know the gloves i have are covered in a fine powder. of course rinsing this off would help, but you can never get it all off. What do you think?

russel

[fmuakkassa]

First, sorry to hear about the dog's death.

I have been reading this thread with interest as I have many different kinds of polyps (Zoanthids) in my aquarium and have handled them bare handed with cuts in my fingers with no ill effects. Either I am lucky or I don't have toxic zoanthids. from now on I'll be careful and wearing gloves is a good idea.

My questions are related to the association between the death of the dog and the zoanthids.

Without a blood sample from the dog showing the toxin (I don't know how the toxin is metabolized once in the body or how to detect it) and also without analysis of the zoanthid in the tank for the toxin, scientifically we can't draw a firm conclusion that the zoanthids were toxic and killed the dog.

If this is what really happened then you should immedialtely get rid of those zoanthids.

A simple experiment would be to feed some of those zoanthids to an experimental animal (mouse or rat) and see the effect to duplicate what happened to the dog. Of course we need to know the LD50 (the dose at which 50% of the experimental animals will die)

What we really need, as previuosly mentioned, is a book about the toxicology of aquarium species (corals, fish etc.) with pictures for identification, type of toxins, clinical side effects and symptoms, antidodes if available etc. Who ever comes out with such a book will make a bundle!

Just my 2 cents.

Good thread

[Chris Witort]

I have a guinea pig! My Moorish Idol likes to eat zoanthids. There are about twenty different varieties in my tank and he seems to have sampled most. He is still alive and kicking after feeding on them for nearly a year!? Perhaps mine aren’t toxic or Moorish Idols are immune from the most toxic natural organic substance.

[Aaron1100us]

Ok, I'm confused. This is supposed to be the most deadly toxin in the world but when dcowling got some, just his arm burned. If you get tagged by a Black Mamba, you'd be dead before you hit the ground. How does it not kill the fish and everything else in the aquarium?

[intheband]

corals found in the aquarium trade DO NOT contain palytoxin..and its not in zoanthus at all-but rather in palythoa-and only a few species(once again-not available in the trade)contain it...

zooanthids are perfectly harmless-all the hype about this is getting pretty rediculous:rolleyes:

can anyone refute what im saying at all??-and produce the data to back it up?ill gladly eat my words if you can( and maybe even be more careful in the future)..but if you cant-all youre doing is feeding a senseless paranoia..

[ez1ez]

WOW, I have been handling zoo's for months now with no gloves... I had no idea. This explains my sore/stiff hands. Time to buy gloves. But I still love zoo's. I learn something new everyday on reef central.

[kmk2307]

Originally posted by intheband
corals found in the aquarium trade DO NOT contain palytoxin..and its not in zoanthus at all-but rather in palythoa-and only a few species(once again-not available in the trade)contain it...

zooanthids are perfectly harmless-all the hype about this is getting pretty rediculous:rolleyes:

can anyone refute what im saying at all??-and produce the data to back it up?ill gladly eat my words if you can( and maybe even be more careful in the future)..but if you cant-all youre doing is feeding a senseless paranoia..

Could you please provide the source that you found this information in? Considering someone lost a pet, someone has to go to the hospital, and several people have reported "tripping" after comming into contact with certain palythoa, I don't believe this is correct.

Kevin

[kmk2307]

fmuakkassa,
I think you would be suprized with how much work has already been done on palytoxins. Check out the book I posted info on above if you are interested.

Kevin

[ez1ez]

Well I went to the MD because my hands were stiff and swollen. I thought it could be hypertension or high bloodpressure. I checked out fine the MD said if it doesn't go away in a few days go back. wel for the last month I have been handling about 100 zoo frags and glueing them to rocks. I have cut on my hands from Liverock. I'm wondering if zoo's have different potencies of toxins... hmmm. I just ordered some gloves from my neighbor who is a vet. So if my hands get better then I know... I will continue to read up on the toxins and possibly get a blood test to see if it shows up.

[Fido]

I've been using mid-forearm length nitrile (or some other glove compound)/rubber gloves for awhile whenever I stick my hands in the tank to touch anything. Learned my lesson after stocking my tank with LR with bare hands and had little cuts/sores from just about everything on em :)

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by Shlou
I've seen a lot on how dangerous this toxin is, but is there any danger of this toxin affecting other corals or fish in the tank? Just curious. If my zoos get upset one day and release toxin could it cause a system crash?
Are there any cases where 'fragging' these corals inside a reef aquarium have caused harm to fish or invertebrates?
{I realize that the 'proper' way to frag Zoanthids is outside the main display tank.}

[Los]

Folks-

Hold on a second. I think we need a quick Salinity check... er, I mean sanity check.

If these things were anywhere NEARLY that toxic, don't you think a few of us would be dead?

Sorry for the skepticism, but I wash my hands BEFORE handling my Zoos, so as not to poison them. I then gladly grab a bite of my Blimpee sandwhich or whatever else I'm snacking on and go on with my life. Sure, I wash my hands at some point, but not religiously and not right away. Do I have cuts on my fingers? Yup. So do most of you guys, especially after handling live rock. Do I have fish in my tanks that are still alive? Yup. So do most of you guys. Am I alive? My wife would argue about this one, but I can assure you...

Oh, and if you could "trip" off of these things, I would have learned about that one in Berkeley. Heck, as humans we consume all sorts of toxins for recreation - even licking toads. I'm not speaking from experience, but trust me, at Cal they have tried EVERYTHING.

All of the above reasons aside (and my being alive is pretty compelling evidence, imho), the most compelling reason that these things don't kill people is that they are sold without warning and have been for years. If they were that dangerous, this would be litigious dinamite and fish stores would be out of business.

Things that kill you when they are used in a normal manner tend to generate lawsuits. Seriously guys, think about it. Lawyers are suing places that sell things as toxic as... food (Burger King, etc).

Now, if you went and munched on a handfull of these suckers, or if you decided to turn your puffer fish into sushi, then I could understand people dying. So, let's agree not to eat our pets.

Sorry for being a skeptic, but this has all the signs of being urban legendish. Myself, I will continue to be more concerned about cleaning my hands BEFORE handling my zoos than AFTER handling them.

That being said, I will make sure not to have any zoo salad and if those little suckers do turn out to be that toxic, I sheepishly request that someone feed my fish while I'm gone.

Cheers,

LOS

[Aaron1100us]

I agree with you. I wash my hands before putting them in my tank and I've touched my zoos with cuts and nothing has ever happened. I think I read on an earlier post on here about how zoos that one of the most deadly or potent toxins there are ( think thats what I read). I highly dought that their toxins are more deadly than say a Black Mamba. There is enough toxins in a Black Mamba to kill 100 men. My zoos can't even kill me:) I've even saw my bicolor angel pick at one once and he is still kickin:)

[Los]

I agree. But, we still agree NOT TO EAT our ZOOS until further study. My wife isn't likely to volunteer for such an experiment. But, in the interest of science, the experiment would likely have to be "blind" anyway - so it's probably best that she's unaware of this whole nonsense <grin>.

To be fair, I'll serve as the beneficiary... er, I mean "control". I won't eat the zoos.

If one of us dies and the other doesn't, well then we'll have advanced science.

Although, what do we do if I get sick and she doesn't? That brings up an interesting point, my friends: cause and effect. I don't doubt that someone lost a dog (which all kidding aside, I know is one of the worst experiences on earth), but as far as some of the other stories... I mean we all have some sort of maladies that we could attribute to those damned zoos. In fact, everyone who is concerned should send a sample of them to me and I'll gladly "test" their suitability for aquarium use. I'll even give you regular "I am still alive" posts!

I'm betting I don't get many takers.

Come on guys. Don't eat your inverts (or other pets, for that matter); don't mainline aquarium water enriched with recently crushed organisms; and definitely don't feed them to your wife until we've proven efficacy. Within those guidelines, I'm pretty sure you'll be OK.

Cheers,

LOS

[musicsmaker]

I'll even give you regular "I am still alive" posts! Don't bother. Instead, you could ask one of the experts that moderate forums here on RC. The coral forum or the reef chemistry forum would be a good start. If the toxin is make believe, then why was it such a great accomplishment to have synthetically reproduced it?I read on an earlier post on here about how zoos that one of the most deadly or potent toxins there are ( think thats what I read). I highly dought that... Have a look at one of the links at the top of this thread. It talks about all different sorts of toxins. Better yet, do a Google search on "palytoxin".

Perhaps most zoas don't contain high concentrations of the toxin, and yes it is likely that some don't have any at all. But they can, and some surely do. You can't tell by looking, so it is best to assume that all do.

[Los]

I'm not saying the toxin is make believe, its just that there are all sorts of things that we shouldn't be eating and drinking (pets definitely being high up on my list).

What I do question, however, is that handling these things and then eating a bite of sandwhich or getting our faces splashed with aquarium water or even having cuts on our hands is of any risk at all.

You know the greasy mechanic who eats a sandwhich while working on your car (at $60/hr)... he suffers no ill effects either. I am sure that should he start drinking gas martinis, getting his fix from transmission fluid IVs, engine oil and vinegar salads, or finishing off the hot day with coolant-cool-aid... well, he'd probably start having problems. All those things are toxic if consumed (at least I assume so - having not yet done the wife test with them), but are perfectly safe if used in a reasonable manner.

The thread is a good one and I'd welcome more evidence. I suspect it will turn out to be kind of like cyanide being in almonds. Sure, it's there, but in aweful low quantities.

I just wanted to have a quick sanity check before everyone starts flushing their zoos down the toilet.

I think the best post/idea was where someone mentioned doing a controled animal study with mice or rats (I happen to like both my wife and mother in law - so they are not really options).

For starters, however, they sure don't seem to do much damage to any animals in the tank.

Cheers,


LOS

[Shoestring Reefer]

The link below has this quote:

"Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin."

I don't know how reputable the site is, but here is the link:

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

[Shoestring Reefer]

Another link has this to say:

"At least some Palythoa are considered toxic. References normally cite that Palythoa toxica and Palythoa tuberculosa are the two most toxic species. I do not think that these two species are normally found in the hobby."

http://www.reefcorner.com/SpecimenSheets/sea_mats.htm

***************

But this link said the complete opposite:

"First, all members of Zoanthus and Palythoids contain the highly potent neurotoxin known as palytoxin. It is found in their mucus and in their mesenteries. This toxin does not seem to affect neighboring colonies in the same way as some of the other noxious chemical secretions of corals. Rather, it appears to serve as an anti-predation defense. Delbeek and Sprung note that several predators of zoanthids are not only unaffected by palytoxin, but actively store it in their bodies and shells."..."Irrespective of its use to the zoanthid, palytoxin is a very dangerous substance, and anyone handling zoanthids of any species should be very careful not to allow the polyps to contact any area of broken skin. Handwashing to remove mucus after handling zoanthids is absolutely required in the interest of safety. Palytoxin is also denatured by heat, and hot water hand washes will further act in loosening and solubilizing and mucosal remnants. " (third paragraph ftom the bottom)

http://www.aquarium.net/0198/0198_1.shtml

[Shoestring Reefer]

Do a search on this page for "Protopalythoa grandis", or scroll down to the "Zoanthids?" heading.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/zoanthid1.htm

"...We went and bought some polyps this weekend that look like giant button polyp zoanthids that are a brown and white marble sort of color. They are very large and we were told at the LFS that we bought them at that they are called cinnamon polyps.
< I know them very well. I poisoned myself three times in ten years as a coral farmer with them. They are potentially fatally toxic, but know that many corals are that you don't know about. Besides not eating your corals <smile>, you often hear that one should wear gloves in the aquarium to protect your corals from contamination on your hands and to protect your of course from these stinging animals. This is a good reason. Just do not handle them with cuts on your hands or propagate them without wearing gloves <G>. The worst that you are likely to encounter is a metallic taste in the mouth if you work in the tank without gloves. The creature is also known as the Giant Sun Polyp, Protopalythoa grandis. A beautiful creature that also occurs marbled with pink and green! as well as with radiating red and white stripes>"

This site sells them:
http://www.thesea.org/captivesystems/store/default.asp?page=paly.asp

Numerous sites have said that people have gotten sick, some people numerous times, from some of these animals. I did not find any site that said someone died, but no one said they ate them, either.

So, based on who you believe:
A) ALL have this toxin to varying degrees
B) Some have the toxin, and are avalable in the aquarium trade
C) Some are toxic, but not sold in the aquarium trade
D) They are never toxic, it's a different species all together and we are paranoid for even reading this thread at all.

Personally, I plan to have them in my tank. They look great! I will regard all of them as potentially dangerous, and keep my kids out of the tank, and post a warning on the top of my hood to warn people.

[luvtolean]

Originally posted by Los
You know the greasy mechanic who eats a sandwhich while working on your car (at $60/hr)... he suffers no ill effects either. I am sure that should he start drinking gas martinis, getting his fix from transmission fluid IVs, engine oil and vinegar salads, or finishing off the hot day with coolant-cool-aid... well, he'd probably start having problems.

Err...try again. Mechanics have abnormally high levels of cancer in their trade. Most long term mechanics I know of, die of cancer. Even the ones that don't drink or smoke.


I had no idea these guys were toxic. I always wash my hands after working around the tank, but this is good info. Sure, reefers may not drop like flies, but it's not a bad idea to take preventitive measures.

The daddy long leg spider also has a very potent toxin, but it's not able to deliver it to humans, only its prey. I'm guessing however a Zoo is set up to utilize the toxin, means it normally can't hurt a human.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by Los

You know the greasy mechanic who eats a sandwhich while working on your car (at $60/hr)... he suffers no ill effects either. I am sure that should he start drinking gas martinis, getting his fix from transmission fluid IVs, engine oil and vinegar salads, or finishing off the hot day with coolant-cool-aid... well, he'd probably start having problems. All those things are toxic if consumed (at least I assume so - having not yet done the wife test with them), but are perfectly safe if used in a reasonable manner.
...
For starters, however, they sure don't seem to do much damage to any animals in the tank.

LOS
:lol:
Good point about mechanics and cancer, luvtolean. In the oil shipping business, merchant marines are required to take benzine (sp?) tests to track the accumulation of cancer-causing benzine in their bodies. Their employer can then show by (hopefully) low levels in their body that it was not the cargo (ie, oil) that caused cancer, if anyone gets it.

I'm sure that wasn't Los's point, anyway. One of the sites listed above (at least, I THINK I listed it) states that the toxin in these little guys is NOT an offensive toxin; rather, it is a defensive toxin and that is why EATING the animals will be lethal. It also said that some preditors appear immune to the toxin.

I don't know why contact with the mucus, etc would cause non-lethal problems if the dose really is as small as is claimed. Maby MORE THAN ONE toxin is at work. Some types of venemous snakes have over 10 toxins and chemicals in their venom (anti-coagulants, parylizers, flesh digesters, etc) .

[Alice]

All of the above reasons aside (and my being alive is pretty compelling evidence, imho), the most compelling reason that these things don't kill people is that they are sold without warning and have been for years. If they were that dangerous, this would be litigious dinamite and fish stores would be out of business.
I see lion fish at SW stores everytime I make the rounds, and have yet to ever see a disclaimer on them. Granted, for most people the sting is no more life threatening than a bee sting, but for some people, they can be deadly. I know someone who wound up in a coma from lion fish venom. Heck, I've seen Stonefish for sale in stores and have heard no more disclaimer than "Nope, you don't want to pet those ones." :eek2: So I doubt we'll be seeing disclaimers on zoos anytime soon.

Alice

[Scopaeniform]

I am going to have to side with the skeptics on this issue.

I first got into the reef keeping hobby a few years back when I was working at a LFS. Part of my responsibilities while working there was to take the live rock that had arrived in the morning (the 50lb. cardboard boxes of rock) and place it in our live rock holding tank to be sold. This would mean innumerable cuts on my hands from jagged edges and dead corals. Our corals would usually come in on the same day and I would put those away in our huge reef tank as well.

Now being that the Zoo's we had were imported they would most likely have built up a fairly high concentration of palytoxin in the bags where they had remained for several days. Because we didn't mix our water with that of incoming corals; I poured the water from the bag over my hands and then placed the coral (being held in my hand) in the aquarium. I didn't always get the chance to wash my hands after handling the zoo's before helping a customer that would walk through the door.

The palytoxin is suppose to cause constriction of the myocardia in a sudden and violent fashion (with constriction on the arteries as well I am sure) if a toxic dosage is achieved. With that said, my heart muscles should have clamped up tighter than Enron in a congressional hearing a long time ago.

The palytoxin may be there, but the consintration levels have to be EXTREMELY weak. I am talking a several ten-thousanths of what it takes to acheive toxicity in the human body. The toxin of the zoo's may be the most lethal known to man but it doesn't mean squat if the concentration is extremely low. Dogs use their mouths for everything and there are any number of toxins that he could have come into contact with (antifreeze, poop, insectacides, etc.).

P.S.- If you ever wonder what it feels like to have extreme myalgia from toxins in an aquatic friend, you should try a being stung by a Billroute (freshwater relative of the Stonefish, also from Australia). I was stung in the middle knuckle of my middle finger and within ten minutes I was in the worst pain of my life (and I have broken several bones). My left arm had swollen to twice the size of the right one and I seriously thought I was going to die. It made my sting from a pincushion urchin a few weeks earlier feel like a nice back rub. The Billroute that stung me was a baby half the size of my thumb nail.

[Los]

Scopaeniform-

Thanks for being our guinea pig!

LOS

[Runner]

Originally posted by Los
Hold on a second. I think we need a quick Salinity check... er, I mean sanity check.

If these things were anywhere NEARLY that toxic, don't you think a few of us would be dead? Just a snide comment from the peanut gallery:

If one of us was killed by a zoathid, we wouldn't be posting about it, would we? :D

[Los]

OK, while I know it's not absolute evidence...

Yesterday, I was at an aquarium store nearby Sacramento. It's a great place, btw, called Aqualife Aquarium. Awesome animals, knowledgeable, good value, etc...

Anyway, the lady who was working there had a toddler splashing his hands in the tank containing various corals, including zoos. I inquired about this, pointing out that kids always stick their hands in their mouths and she laughed. If they were anywhere near that poisonous, that little kid wouldn't be here, since that wasn't the first time he's played in that tank.

Before people get up in arms about a kid sticking his hands in, the lady was right there next to him, watching him carefully, and I'm sure made him wash his hands BEFORE sticking them in the tank. He wasn't making a mess, disturbing the animals, or (on the subject of this post) killing himself.

I think as long as we don't make zoo salad, we're OK. And, when I get a dog, I'll be sure to keep the doors around my sump closed. That being said, I'm not overly worried about any of this. I remain more concerned about me hurting my animals than vice versa.

Cheers,

LOS

[tgreene]

Just to be on the safe side, everyone here should immediately bag up all of their Zoo's, and ship them to me for safe disposal... ;)

[na1paj]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
[B]Another link has this to say:

"At least some Palythoa are considered toxic. References normally cite that Palythoa toxica and Palythoa tuberculosa are the two most toxic species. I do not think that these two species are normally found in the hobby."

http://www.reefcorner.com/SpecimenSheets/sea_mats.htm


Hey thanks for the pics. but how can you tell if my zoos are palythoas? i mean what's the difference? as far as i know, one of my zoos is colored like the orange/green ones on that site
I've never had problems w/ swelling after handling the zoos w/ cuts on my hands. Could it be an allergy thing? i know my friend would itch and swell after touching a rose anomone but my fiance wouldn't (i never tried myself.. too scared) and my fiance would swell up very very badly after touching bristle worms (he said it's allergy... who knows)

[SLKs reef]

Well.. These have made me think over in getting frags of zoo's. I am going to a frag swap in Oct. and planned to get some zoo's but i dont think i will now.. Just seems to cautious to have colonies of zoos in your tank. esp cause i have a bunch of cuts and stuff on my hands. Then if I want to have zoos i would be parinoid about wearing gloves when i have my hands in the tank. I am always fraging my xenia. Does anyone know if that carrys any type of toxins that can be harmful. When I cut my xenia or pull a piece off a rock with my bare hands my fingers will tend to have a weird smell after from handling the xenia from its slime coat or tissue. I will always wash off my hands after I touch it. But sometimes I will throw a few pieces away and some might drop on the patio and I have a 10 month old yellow labrador that would probably lick/sniff the xenia.. and if he ate it im sure he would get sick? please correct me if I am wrong.

[kmk2307]

Hi SLKs reef,

<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

You might want to check out this link as far as xenia goes: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140276. I wouldn't be that worried about the zooanthids. As long as you don't eat them and are moderately careful, I think you should be ok.

HTH,
Kevin

[SLKs reef]

Thanks for the welcome and if I did add some zoos to my reef should i always where are pair of gloves when working thw the corals esp the zoos? Would regular latex wrist hight gloves w/ maybe a rubberband around the top so no water gets inside the glove? Or would I want the full arm ones?

[musicsmaker]

If I were to get some gloves, then I would get the full arm ones. KMK gives good advice though. Just be careful and wash your hands. We should be doing this anyway whenever we are finished working in the tank.

[DgenR8]

I think the biggest threat posed by zoos is that they can overtake your rocks, and corals.
Xenia stinks, no doubt, but I have never heard of it being harmful to anything other than your nose!

[SLKs reef]

Would the gloves be reuseable or have to dispose after use each time?

[musicsmaker]

Try to find the cheap disposable latex kind that don't have the powder on the inside. The local veterinarian should be able to hook you up.

[Los]

Musicmaker -

The podwatching is... priceless. Great quote.

LOS

[musicsmaker]

Thanks!

[RLiu818]

i can't believe the toxin awareness of the zoos has only been exposed recently and no deaths have been reported considering how long reef keeping has existed.

if it weren't for this forums i would still be handling my zoos with my bare hands.

and come to think of it, i would assume that most reef keepers do not use internet forums such as these, so many are unaware of the toxins.

i go to a lfs and i frequently see a customer go in and say to the fishstore clerk, "hey those are pretty neat.. what requirements do they need?" fishstore clerk, "oh they are one of the most hardiest corals.. they will do well just about anywhere in the tank and they also wont kill other corals" customer- "cool ill take it!"

i simply just have to ask.. why hasnt anyone died yet?

[Los]

Ummmm..... my best guess is that no one had died, because they really aren't that dangerous. But, I think that's what you were getting at.

LOS

[RLiu818]

Originally posted by Los
Ummmm..... my best guess is that no one had died, because they really aren't that dangerous. But, I think that's what you were getting at.

LOS

yea exactly.. i think people tend to exaggerate about how dangerous zoos really are. although, tests have revealed taht the palytoxin is in fact the most powerful toxin in the world, zoos actually do not seem that dangerous.

zoos are not spiders that can bite you, or a cobra that can spray poison into your eyes and blind you and then follow with a lethal biting attack.

i 'think' that zoos are only secrete their toxins when wounded. so much care should taken during fragging. maybe some tests can prove me wrong. if tests can show that by touching a polyp with my bare hands, toxins will transfer from the coral to my skin, and still leaving a lethal dose, then i would be convinced that zoos are truly the most dangerous species and i really hope these corals are no longer sold without a written warning on each sale.

in the case of that guy's dog dying, chances are his dog probably consumed an entire frag of zoos. i would be guessing anywhere from 6-50+ polyps. and it took the dog ~12 hours to die if i recall correctly. Not exactly sure on the facts, if someone wants to correct me please do.

[ez1ez]

The Pacific Island native would crush the zoos in a bowl and dip their spears in the jelly. Just a scratch from their spear would kill their opponent. I still handle them without gloves except when fraggin them. How much of that mucus does it take to kill a human? who knows, Also what would happen if someone was poisoned buy a zoo and dies. He frags zoo and 20min later he collapses... He goes to the emergency room and they say his heart stopped, he had a bad heart, or natural causes. they won't check for palytoxins. How many spouses would be able to step up and say Doc check for palytoxins in his system we have a reef tank. well thats my .02

[na1paj]

lol hahahahaha funny one ez!!!

[DgenR8]

HMMMM, How many spouses would want to uase that on one of us? Or how many of us might want to use it on a spouse??

[glipper69]

I think we are all getting a little to paranoid. I just bought my first colony of zoo's about 2 weeks ago I handled them about 10 times trying to find the location they and I most desired I don't think I washed my hands once afterward. what I usually do is just dry off with a towel then later when I have the time I wash my hands. I am still here with no ill affects.

Please someone put it in there Will that if they die they should be tested for paliotoxins and that the results should be posted on REEF CENTRAL.

hmmm, I'm getting a little hungry I think i'm gonna have a little zoo sandwich. hum hum.

Good Luck
Frank

[Los]

Originally posted by ez1ez
The Pacific Island native would crush the zoos in a bowl and dip their spears in the jelly. Just a scratch from their spear would kill their opponent. I still handle them without gloves except when fraggin them. How much of that mucus does it take to kill a human? who knows, Also what would happen if someone was poisoned buy a zoo and dies. He frags zoo and 20min later he collapses... He goes to the emergency room and they say his heart stopped, he had a bad heart, or natural causes. they won't check for palytoxins. How many spouses would be able to step up and say Doc check for palytoxins in his system we have a reef tank. well thats my .02

The same is true of certain types of frogs (poison dart frogs), but that doesn't mean that handling frogs in general is dangerous at all.

I suspect both sides are right. There is probably a certain type of zoo that isn't found in the hobby, but that is deadly. Fortunately, we don't seem to have any evidence of any human being killed by zoos sold for reefs. With them being so popular, I think we would have heard something about it.

Cheers,

LOS - who promisses NOT to eat his zoos.

[BlackOcellarisUT]

OK well heres my horror story,
I was reaching in to move a newly bought coral (encrusting goniopora) from the front of the tank to somwhere else. I had placed it there a few day earlier realizing when I got home that I had no coral putty left. Once I placed it in the correct position and it was done I accidently rubbed the inner of my arm against the side/ bottom of the rock and possibly some zoos. When my arm was out of the water I felt an intense stinging on my inner arm, and within minutes it was streaking and red. I walked upstairs to tell my parents to keep an eye on me because I felt really lightheaded. I felt very slow, and everything was just a little weird when I looked around. It was like this for a few hours until I felt ok again. My arm was red and streaky fro a few days but I was very scared. I think it was either the zoos, or maybe a little hitchiker millipora on the new coral because it was carribean. I really do not know but whatever it was it scared me. I know that millipora sting is a neurotoxin, but is this the same with polytoxin? Yeah it scared me, now I am much more careful. Good coments guys Thanks -tj-

[becon776]

wow... intersting thread! I was once stung by something (don't know for sure) while moving live rock. a little pinprick caused my left hand to swell incredibly. I couldn't move my hand for a week. A bit nervous and told my wife to keep an eye out. Gave me an entire new respect for my underwater friends.

[Chris Mu.]

Wierd stuff ..i've been working with corals for ten years now, on the retail level, and i cant say that i have ever had any type of reaction to a zoo.. i have like 8 rocks of zoos in my own aquarium too and over the past ten years have stuck scrapped up hands in zoo tanks and never had a problem.. cant say that i have tried eating them... i guess thats what somebody really needs to try heh heh (dont do this unless under close supervison of a professional doctor ..) heh heh disclaimer so you cant sue me .. wait you'd be dead anyways lol .. so all i see so far is dont eat your corals? is this even a new thought? Torches, plates, hydnopora .. now those will leave you burning ..zoos? never happened to me and i handle em almost every day..idk i'll believe it when i hit the floor i guess .. heh heh Interesting post topic though...anybody have any metalic colors they want to get rid?
i need reds and blues and would consider some bright oranges !

Thanks!

[Chris Mu.]

I think somebody should make a movie about corals comming out of the ocean to take over the world... i mean imagine a long tentical plate the size of a vw beetle traveling down the street.. heh heh and toxic zoos that kill people in seconds .. just think of the possibilities!

[zooqi]

Originally posted by ez1ez
thats my .02

I agree and I handle them all the time even when fraging them. I handled over 100 big colonies yesterday and brok some of them and some I put pressure on the rock and brok it to tow and I had slimes all over my hands.
http://zooqi.com/zoos.gif

[Recce]

P.S.- If you ever wonder what it feels like to have extreme myalgia from toxins in an aquatic friend, you should try a being stung by a Billroute (freshwater relative of the Stonefish, also from Australia). I was stung in the middle knuckle of my middle finger and within ten minutes I was in the worst pain of my life (and I have broken several bones). My left arm had swollen to twice the size of the right one and I seriously thought I was going to die. It made my sting from a pincushion urchin a few weeks earlier feel like a nice back rub. The Billroute that stung me was a baby half the size of my thumb nail.

I can back that up, I have stood on them, less than an inch long, and ended up with a foot the size of a football! Well not quite, but you get they idea :eek1:

I am with the skeptics on this one, I have often torn chunks off zoo colonies to give to people, and I nearly always have some kind of cut on a finger, and I have a colony of zoos, that I frag by pinching the zoo at the base, and tearing it off the rock, covering my fingers in mucus, which I will admit is difficult to wash off, and I have suffered no ill effects.

Do any of the papers etc, say how much of this palyotoxin is present in any particular specimens?

[ez1ez]

That's an idea... Maybe a Biologist would like to frag some zoo's and check the levels of palytoxins in them. I would send him 2 of every zoo I have. Then we would know which are the most lethal.

[cal3v]

Quick question, is palytoxin a protein? If it is I need to check if I can find out if I can get some donated, and I can probably run a protein gel and use southern blotting (if that's possible as well) to find out which of our corals actually has it. Or maybe ELISA test? I dunno yet. Have to do more research but it would make a good independent project for my bio-tech class, have to see if its even feasible to do at my school too though. Anybody who can help in any way in research, etc, please lmk. Thanks!

[musicsmaker]

You might want to run that by the guys in the chemistry forum. I went there to ask a few questions and it was either Randy or Bomber that said their college professor synthetically reproduced it.

[cal3v]

Cool, maybe I can get a sample and do some testing.

[Creetin]

I dunno, I was just fragging some with bare cut up hands in my tank two days ago, and i am not dead, or swollen. How does anyone know which spcies it is that can, or do have this palytoxins?
My condolences on your dog.

[Recce]

I dont know how seriously to take the danger threat from zoos, but I know that I wash my hands much more thoroughly now after handling them. Yesterday, when I moved a colony of palyothoa (spelling?), I noticed a very thick slime on my hands, that took a bit of scrubbing to get off. I might just have previously wiped my hands off on a towel, and worried about washing them later, but I thought about the dog story, and definitely didnt want to poison m dogs.

[MarkKlier]

Wow, that is sad. In the tank given the structure of these compounds, they should lend themselves to protein skimming. That does little good for direct contact.....thanks for the information. MK

[Trumpet12]

Does anyone know what the concentration of these dangerous compounds in zoos is?

cal3v,

I think it would be great if you tested some zoos, so that we could learn how dangerous they really are.

[cal3v]

If I could I would, it seems like finding a way to do it is difficult, I am going to try and contact a company who is developing a detection kit(said it on an older press release) so maybe they are done already.

[Trumpet12]

Originally posted by cal3v
If I could I would, it seems like finding a way to do it is difficult, I am going to try and contact a company who is developing a detection kit(said it on an older press release) so maybe they are done already.

Okay. I hope they have the kits.

[Creetin]

Is it me, Or does any one else think the crazyglue had something to do with it? Crazyglue has been tested in the medical field and has been determined a DANGER. It is poisonous, And destroys tissue. In very small amount's dilluted by a good deal of water it is probably nothing to worry about, But fragging a crap load of corals in a small amount of water can be an accident waiting to happen.

[musicsmaker]

Grazyglue had something to do with what? I've never heard of it being a danger other than gluing your fingers together. Do you have a link to support that?

[Creetin]

First let me say that i am not making light of the situation of the family pet:( I am just stating that i think krazyglue had something to do with it. (But i could be wrong) I don't claim to be a authority in toxicity in zoa's, Or in fact have that great of knowledge of them.

Krazyglue has a chemical called (Cyanoacrylates) Which is poisonous. I do not have access to the testing done with lab animals from the university hospital anymore. I did a recent search, and could not get any info on injesting the chemical other than calling poison controll.
But i am still trying....................

[xfactor]

Good reading, the topic has went from, wow lucky I haven't died yet to hog wash, unless you want to spice up dinner time!.

Anyway I never knew any coral was toxic, so I will getting some gloves, just in case. I would rather spend 15$ for a pair of gloves then my life or 5000$+ in hospital bills.

As for the dog I read about 1/2 of that other thread, the dog most likly ATE some of them. :[

[chrisg2004]

I just purchased a 10 pound piece of live rock loaded with diffrent color & species of Zoos . I added this piece to my 180 (with many large and small fish) hoping the zoos would spread around on to the other live rock. I added the rock by hand, very gently, but only touched under the rock, maybe just a few zoos were touched... and i am still alive to speak of this. What other fish pick at zoos? .. from what I read only a few perhaps? Is it just Morish Idols? I have small Picasso trigger, many small angels and these guys avoid the zoos like the plague so far. Just curious as I am new here... also what are the feeding / dosing requirements for zoos? Do you have to feed them?

[xfactor]

from what I have read the toxin is only released when the zoo is damaged or cut, like in fragging.

[musicsmaker]

To be honest, the only thing I have been able to verify is that they can have the toxin in them, and that if it gets in your blood you will probably die.

[chrisg2004]

How did you verify this? Did you actually inject someone with zoo juice? Do you have aref. link to support this?

[musicsmaker]

Depending on what part you want me to verify:

Can zoa's contain the toxin? Ask the guys in the coral forum and the chemistry forum. If you get a good conversation going please put a link to it in this thread.

Is palytoxin likely to kill you? Check the link on the first page of this thread. There is a link that talks about several different toxins, and lists palytoxin as one of the most toxic organic substances known to man.

[chrisg2004]

I just read those posts... fascinating!

[musicsmaker]

I just went back and re-read my original post to this thread. According to the link in that post, it would only take 4 MICROgrams of palytoxin to kill a person.

4 micrograms = 0.004 milligrams

[BlackSumbel]

I've had a scare with Zoanthids, whic occurred -AFTER- seeing the posts about toxicity.
I was fragging a colony of purple/green Zoanthids (simmilar to those in the gallery of Logical Reef). I had a hunk of the rock actually broken away, but the -mat- still attached the frag to the mother colony. As I was reaching for a pair of steel scissors, i heard SNAP, and felt something hit my eye. It was wet, it was squishy... it came from the zoanthid colony, which had broken by barely shifting.

It burned like -all hell-, at which point I dropped everything into the fragging bucket and rushed to the bathroom to rinse with water (more water, visine, more water... etc). The stinging stopped almost immediately, and I suffered no ill effects. I assume that rather than something toxic getting in my eye, it was something -salty- and foreign. None the less, it scared me.

I've handled zoos with a sufficient amount of open hangnails (salt water does that to me) and have had nothing more than a mild burn from the salt. I suppose it really does depend on what -kind- of Zoanthid, or Palythoa you're dealing with.

To be on the safe side, I would strongly avoid Palythoa (as I do, for more than just that reason) and stick with Zoanthids which are either Aquacultured, or are frags from fellow reefers (if you are greviously fearful of Zoanthid Death). Gloves are a "Good Thing" as well, because you don't get pickled arms... I sware, if I were to add dill to my tank, I could literally pickle my own arms, as much as I stick them in there...

Frankly, there are things way more common, and way more dangerous than a few species of Palythoa. I had two Cone snails in my tank that came in as hitch-hiking eggs. I have the shell of one of them, which is about 3/4" long. Large enough to give me trouble. I've been tagged by a fireworm which -literally- put me on the floor howling, and my Gonipora (yeah, I have one, let's move on) causes a weird stinging and numbness if I accidentally touch it. Not to mention that the Nudibranches which feed on Zoanthids could be to blame for SOME of these incidents... they would tend to have the chemicals in higher concentration, right?

Also, you have to take into account how sensitive a given person is, as to whether they will react violently to a low dosage. A very good budy of mine in Fla cannot stick his arm into his own tank. He is -horribly- alergic to the chemicals corals put off naturally, especially Coralimorphs. He has to wear armpit-high gloves, or he ends up with what looks like massive sunburn, or Psoriosis on his arms. I imagine if he got -any- zoanthid toxin on his skin, he'd be passing out. He recently got out of the hospital after stepping in a jellyfish. I saw the pictures... his whole leg looked like sausage. Not pretty. There was draining involved. Just... gross. But, I'm not telling people that they should run screaming from the beaches... nahh, just him.

Taking all of those things into account... watch your back. Wash your hands, wash your arms. Use a strong soap and hot water. Hell, douse with vinegar to remove stinging cells. Wear gloves if all else fails. Distribute them at reef meetings under the "Safe Zoo Awareness" campaign... ;) "No Reef-Love if you've got no Reef-Glove"

-Sumbel.
Who is loath to leave things on a sour note in her posts.

[Mexican Hermit]

I think that the guy's who's dog died drank out of a bucket with Frags. I bet the consentration of the palytoxin was a lot higher than in a tank. I also think that the level of stress on the zoo's makes the toxin come out of the zoo.

I think the point of the thread is to be careful.

M2C.

MH

[ErikS]

The daddy long leg spider also has a very potent toxin, but it's not able to deliver it to humans, only its prey. I'm guessing however a Zoo is set up to utilize the toxin, means it normally can't hurt a human.
Wrong on both counts. A "daddy long legs" can penetrate human skin AND it's toxin is mild at best. Mythbuster's proved this urban legend false.

[jblabs]

Originally posted by ErikS
Wrong on both counts. A "daddy long legs" can penetrate human skin AND it's toxin is mild at best. Mythbuster's proved this urban legend false.

There is the answer: Call in mythbusters!

I also think the answer lies somewhere in between the extremes being discussed here!


NEVER believe every thing you read, and the parts you want to believe, make sure it comes from more than one reputable source.
Once not so long ago everyone was sure cigarettes were not harmful.:smokin:

[juststartingout]

Originally posted by BlackSumbel
"No Reef-Love if you've got no Reef-Glove"



LMAO:lmao:

[Muttling]

I'm not sure where these guys got their information, but here's an interesting tid bit.


Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin. Originally, it was only found in a single tidal pool on the island of Maui in Hawaii and native Hawaiians used to coat spear points with a red seaweed from the pool. Toxin-containing corals appear to be randomly and sparingly distributed throughout the South Pacific and there is now a school of thought that suggests that the coral is simply concentrating the toxin made by a dinoflagellate (a small single-celled organism) called Ostreopis siamensis.

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

[reef]

I have been fraging zoos for 10 plus years with no issue, no gloves. I do not want to dilute the potential danger for a paticular special species but lets get some facts soon. I am sure there has to be a scientist on this sight that can dispell some of this fear.

[musicsmaker]

I think that has been done already, reef.

Muttling, thanks for the additional info.

[DouglasTiede]

tag

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by DouglasTiede
tag

[tagalong]

[reef]

Hey musicmaker, so I do not have to go back and read this enrtire thread. Was the sceintific evidence post, in this thread, regarding the toxicity? Was there a link to some external formal research that we can referance? Thanks in advance. Oh yeah let me back the moderators comments on the tag comment. Nobody needs little non constructive wise remarks and from a fellow Packers Fan besides. We are all on the same team here.

[greenfishies]

palytoxin death squad...don't mess with me man I have some zoos here and I'm not afraid to use 'em...just don't eat them or frag them near your kids..:D

[DouglasTiede]

Originally posted by DgenR8
In our ongoing effort to continually improve Reef Central, the RC Staff would like to encourage everyone not to reply to threads with “Just Tagging Along� or other noncontributory comments. These kinds of replies are discourteous to the others who are subscribed to that thread as this causes them to reopen threads that have no useful additional information. It also makes it difficult for the moderators and Team RC members to find threads with no replies thus not serving the thread originator. If you want to follow a thread of interest, please use the “subscribe to this thread� link below the quick reply box. The effect will be the same. You can easily track the thread of interest in the subscribed threads section of your “My RC� page.

We would like to thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter.

Regards,

The RC Staff



Thanks for the info!

[TheCoralNabber]

very interesting.....guess I'll snag some gloves from work before I move around my zoes again.

[jols]

whoah.. and to think that i was touching them with my bare hands just a while ago! and i have an open wound about 1 inch long..

will rubber gloves do? wont they release something dreadful in the tank?

[musicsmaker]

There are places that sell rubber gloves. You should be able to get elbow or shoulder length ones from your local veterinarian. Some online vendors sell them also.

[fussoverthis]

Order shoulder gloves here (http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf%5Fid=86465&gift=False&HSLB=False&mscssid=57B13A62E4184F4E86A8C74FFB8BE718) These are 39" long polymer -- so not bulky -- and they stretch.

[spamin76]

Is there any evidence that the zoos are what actually killed the dog? Did the do an autopsy verifying that he didn't die of suffocation, diverticulitis from swallowing the rock, dehydration from excessive salt water consumption? If this guys dog died from the palyotoxin which is so potent wouldn't the dog just have about keeled over on the spot? Or could it have been a hypersensitivity reaction?

I have handled zoos, even fragged zoos hundreds of times, with skin breaks and I have not keeled over yet.

This sounds a bit like mass hysteria with minimal evidence.

[musicsmaker]

Originally posted by spamin76
Is there any evidence that the zoos are what actually killed the dog? No, but that's not what this thread is about.

[spamin76]

It took the dog 12 hours to pass away - if the palytoxin is the culprit why didn't it take 5 minutes?

Palytoxin
The crude ethanol extracts of the Palythoa toxica proved to be so toxic that an accurate LD50 was difficult to determine. More recently, the toxicity has been determined to be 50-100 ng/kg i.p. in mice. The compound is an intense vasoconstrictor; in dogs, it causes death within 5 min at 60 ng/kg. By extrapolation, a toxic dose in a human would be about 4 micrograms. It is the most toxic organic substance known!

[spamin76]

I was just curious - I will agree that palytoxin is poisonous - I am not going to try to dispute that - I just think that there is really not a lot of evidence that zoos are dangerous - have there been any studies indicating that zoos contain palytoxin? In what amounts? I know some polyps - palythoa contain noticable and perhaps dangerous amounts of palytoxin, but even related genuses like protopalythoa do not contain it in noticable amounts as far as I know - does anyone know otherwise? Much less zoos which are more distantly related.

[musicsmaker]

The idea here is not to throw away all your zoa's. It's to raise awareness that some do contain this stuff, so that those who wish to can take necessary precautions. Wash your hands when you're done, don't lick (or eat) them, and that sort of thing. Wear gloves if you feel so inclined. Here are some semi-recent threads about palytoxin in the reef chemistry forum:

Is Palytoxin (produced by zoanthids) removed by skimmers? (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=349481&highlight=Palytoxin)

what exactly is palytoxin? (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=303805&highlight=Palytoxin)

More people (myself included) should wear gloves when messing in the tank, and for more reasons than palytoxins. There are other things that can put a hurtin' on you in there. Check out these threads, and be sure to look at the pictures: :eek:

Another...your tank can be dangerous thread. (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=414029&highlight=dangerous)

Medical/Injuries from Reefkeeping (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=272139)

Again, threads such as these aren't intended to cause hysteria. They're only there to inform.

[spamin76]

From these threads it sounds like palytoxin is a widely occuring chemical in a lot more than just zoos, it sounds like many, many, many other organisms might contain it too from what Randy said. It also sounds like it is probably not found in high concentrations in most anything but palythoa. Interesting information though, I will keep it in mind.

[reefez]

Just frag them underwater with gloves on. It's not rocket science. Just got to be smarter then the Zoas :)

[elephen]

[i]
The daddy long leg spider also has a very potent toxin, but it's not able to deliver it to humans, only its prey. I'm guessing however a Zoo is set up to utilize the toxin, means it normally can't hurt a human. [/B]

Actually, daddy long leg spidres are NOT toxic or poisioness at all! I have read a few scientific articles and watch an experiment on TV where they tested that theory. They extracted 'venom' from multiple daddy long legs and tested it, they are about as poisioness as a blade of grass (lol)... AKA, not poisioness at all. That is just something people have believed for years for some reason, urban legend

[Shoestring Reefer]

Wow, I didn't know grass was so poisonous. I guess that's why they recommend you where long pants when you mow the lawn.











Just kidding. :)









It's the daddy long legs in the grass that make the grass poisonous. :lol:

[Ti]

Funny.
I cut my hand at work today and yes it bled.
On the way home from work I decided to stop by the lfs.
I bought my 1st zoanthid.
I acclimated it for 1.5 hrs.
By the my tank lights had cycled off.
but anyhow, so I was bare handed with the cut when I handeled it today, THEN i go here and I read this thread.
Page one had me freaked, but after a few posts I noticed people doubting it.
Anyhow, it's 6hrs later now and my arm isn't numb or anything yet.

[musicsmaker]

I think you're going to be fine. :D

[ch0de]

Sooo.. .. .. .. here is my new outfit for working with my zoo's

http://webpages.charter.net/ntnow/mopp.jpg

[mathwick]

that stuffs really scarry thanx for the warning

[Stixbaraca]

I read a couple places that normal latex doesn't really cut it when your talking about these toxins. I recently switched to Nitrile gloves...I think I got them at Lowes...Anyone hear about the latex debate...or am I just crazy?

[Shoestring Reefer]

We're all crazy.

[Stixbaraca]

I don't think anyone will doubt that!

[musicsmaker]

Originally posted by Stixbaraca
I read a couple places that normal latex doesn't really cut it when your talking about these toxins. I recently switched to Nitrile gloves...I think I got them at Lowes...Anyone hear about the latex debate...or am I just crazy? First I've heard of it. Was this recently?

[Stixbaraca]

A friend had mentioned it to me, and i just spent a little time on google. Looks like even some healthcare/medical companies are switching too

[sellout007]

Originally posted by luvtolean
The daddy long leg spider also has a very potent toxin, but it's not able to deliver it to humans, only its prey. I'm guessing however a Zoo is set up to utilize the toxin, means it normally can't hurt a human.


Just want to chime in and say this is 100% false. There are two forms of *daddy long legs*. One of them has no toxin whatso ever and the other is harmless.

[harsaphes]

also.......dont they use Supper Glue during surgery?.....Im pretty sure it has been used in surgical procedures and the patient didnt die........I have on numerous times used super glue to seal a cut on my finger and im still here typing.......minus a finger!...lol

[justincognito]

I have gotten zoanthid juice in my eye and developed the nastiest eye infection i've ever had, my actual eye ball puffed up and hurt like hell and took weeks to get rid of. The second time it happened i got treated faster and the infection only lasted a few days. I got protopalythoa in a razor accident while fragging. I got blood poisoning in one day. It took 4 hours for the red line to go from my wrist to my innner armpit. I had to get IV antibiotics pronto. I work in a retail store and we frag and farm too so i'm always around this and other corals. If i get coral juices in my mouth, nose or eyes (don't ask) i get a sort of high, or sick depends on the coral. Leathers and mushrooms are pretty bad. And inhaling motnipora or acropora dremmel dust has a slight effect. I strongly suggest dust masks and eye protection.

[khable]

well I think it's safe to say i'll never buy zooanthid as long as I live, for i have two dogs and 3 cats who love to hang around my aquarium. nothing is worth buying that could potentially harm a family member

oh and he's right, daddy long legs are about as harmful as a piece of bread ;)

[musicsmaker]

It would be wise to keep dogs and cats from putting ANY reef creatures in their mouth. I don't imagine chewing on an acro frag would do much good for Rover or Muffins either. :D

[rtcpenguin]

Originally posted by RLiu818 although, tests have revealed taht the palytoxin is in fact the most powerful toxin in the world, zoos actually do not seem that dangerous.[/B] Just remember that it is the most powerful ORGANIC toxin. Radioactive waste and dioxin are MUCH more dangerous.

[dpnshnks]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nagel

I also did a search on google for "palytoxin" and had to look at the cached sites to see the data, but here are some quotes:

"Palytoxin acts at the cell membranes to make them permeable to cations - positively charged ions, typically sodium, potassium, and calcium. Many functions of cells depend upon controlling the flow of these ions in and out of the cell, so disrupting this traffic is very dangerous.

At the physiological level, the most sensitive target is the myocardium, or muscular component of the heart, and the primary effect is vasoconstriction or rapid narrowing of blood vessels in the heart and in the lungs. Another effect is hemolysis, or the destruction of the red blood cells. These three effects taken together cut off the oxygen supply and the victim suffocates. "


First off, if cell membranes become more permeable to cations (esp. potassium and calcium) this will cause a depolarization of the cell membrane, which leads to action potentials. These action potentials which are normally generated in specialized cells in the heart and then propogate throughout the myocardium cause the rhythmical beating. Only if the action potentials are generated in one locus is the heart coordinated. If, however, the entire myocardium were to be depoarized, this would more than likely lead to an arrhythmia, because instead of the specialized cells coordinating beating, any and every part of the heart would be generating action potentials. So, if this toxin works as quoted, you would die of a heart attack long before the vacoconstriction and hypoxia kill you.

Second, it is not the most lethal organic compound. Botulinum toxin (yes, botox) is the most powerful toxin. 1ug of the type A toxin is lethal in humans. Looking through my notes, I found a reporting of 5x10^9 mouse LD50/mg. I remember asking the professor who gave the lecture to clarify, because I couldn't believe the number could be true. It means that if 1 mg could be divided up evenly into 5 BILLION mice, half of that population would die. This would give an LD50 in mice at about .5pg.

Lastly, we have to remember that the skin does an awfully good job of stopping most compounds from entering. So, yes, if you were to inject Palytoxin or Botulinum toxin directly into your arteries, then I bet it would be quite lethal. In low concentrations on the surface of the skin, I doubt would do much of anything!

I’m sorry for the rant, but I don’t like seeing such an abuse of science and this was really just the tip of the criticism I had for some of the posts in this thread. I could write a novel for this!

Be careful when doing a google search, anyone can post anything (and this is proof of that :P), but it certainly doesn't make it true!

[musicsmaker]

Yup, anybody can post anything on the internet. This includes people who think they are experts before they are even out of school.

[Nagel]

dpnshnks

First off, look at your hands. Got cuts? If you don't, then I wonder if you own a tank or work on it. I am constantly getting small cuts working in my tanks.. Guess what? Those cuts defeat the defense of your skin...

Second, it is ONE of the most powerful naturally occurring toxins.. I don't see people getting palytoxin shots, but I do see botox shots..

Finally, its a word of caution to the newbies who don't know at all. KNOWING is half the battle.. Should I just let people unknowingly handle these things without realizing the potential behind them? I mean, did you even KNOW zoanthids and palythoa polyps have a toxin before you read this thread? Its for information. My google sources weren't "www.joedontknowjack.com" they were university and medical sites.. I trust the validity of their information..

Making a statement to warn people of the potential dangers in their tanks is not bad, nor an abuse of science. I never said my words were law, but TOO MANY people do NOT realize that these things have some serious toxic potential if they are mishandled. I know MANY people who have been poisoned because they didn't know, or weren't careful.. It may not have killed them, but do I need a dead reefer to have a reason to post a caution note?

[Stbringer]

Some ramblings from yet another reefer.

Back in the 70's I was a Nuke, and have handled nuclear materials and am quite happy to have been trained and exposed to same. The "nice" thing about radioisotopes is that they are DETECTABLE so when you screwed up and inadvertently actually contacted and subsequently SPREAD the contamination, a meter could alert you to it.

Now, from the things I have read (between the lines and on the lines) about this toxin/zoos in general basically says:
1. Not all polyps carry it
2. It may be (like nudibranchs) some that eat a particular dinoflagellate store the toxin ORIGINALLY made in the dino.
3. All soft corals practice some form of chem warfare for turf.

So, with my personal experience (I suspect having lightly poisoned myself a time or two with SOMETHING) I now wear gloves when fragging zoos, or say when a rock crushes a few and the brown/black juice squirts into the tank.

I still start sipons in the old fashioned way, I just don't stick the end in a zoo colony first.

The real danger is in NOT KNOWING and NOT being able to DETECT when a particular organism is a potential threat. With a .5 microgram threshold for fatality, I will NOT eat before washing my hands, and learned with the nuke stuff that you don't SMOKE before washing up either as the cigarette goes in/out of the mouth wayyy to often and could easily migrate the toxin orally.

Use realistic precautions.

[Nagel]

Originally posted by Stbringer
I still start sipons in the old fashioned way, I just don't stick the end in a zoo colony first.

tsk tsk tsk ;)

Joing the new wave :) Use your powerhead to start the siphon. first, no chance of drinking "the juice", and second, you don't end up with a mouthful of SW...

Just a tip :)

[Stbringer]

Haha! Thanks, Guess I am old school, huh?

[sportsguy247]

Originally posted by justincognito
I have gotten zoanthid juice in my eye and developed the nastiest eye infection i've ever had, my actual eye ball puffed up and hurt like hell and took weeks to get rid of. The second time it happened i got treated faster and the infection only lasted a few days. I got protopalythoa in a razor accident while fragging. I got blood poisoning in one day. It took 4 hours for the red line to go from my wrist to my innner armpit. I had to get IV antibiotics pronto. I work in a retail store and we frag and farm too so i'm always around this and other corals. If i get coral juices in my mouth, nose or eyes (don't ask) i get a sort of high, or sick depends on the coral. Leathers and mushrooms are pretty bad. And inhaling motnipora or acropora dremmel dust has a slight effect. I strongly suggest dust masks and eye protection.

The same exact thing happend to me.

[mad mechanic reefer]

Hey , Im no expert on toxins and Im already doomed to an early death just by being in the motor trade but whenever I have to put my hands in the tank ( I always have sores over my hands from having dermititis from the trade and / or the tank ) they itch like crazy go red and swell up ! I used to think it was a reaction from the salt but the more I read this thread the more I wonder as I have a few different colonies of zoos and many other corals in the tank . Sometimes it is worse than others but when Im in direct contact with zoos or corals ie fragging or moving it is generally worse . My message to the lucky ones who dont seem affected is please be carefull as protective gloves cost nothing compared to the value of our lives .

[musicsmaker]

Originally posted by mad mechanic reefer
the motor trade What's that? If I were to guess, I would guess working on cars. But just in case I'm wrong...

[mad mechanic reefer]

Its the carcinogenic stuff in engine oil , fuel , exhaust fumes etc all stuff that is fine in small doses but prolonged or repeated contact can cause cancer or an early death which is why the motor trade has one of the top mortality rates .

Cheerio now Im off to get measured up for my box :D :D :D

[herp_house]

well i halfass read this, i only read the dog thread and one page but i figured i would share me experiance. about a month or so iago i was re-aranging my reef for a while and cuts and scrapes happen, i fraged some zoos and other stuff but then when i got done i went to sleep. i woke up in the morning sicker than i have ever been in my life. i havent puked in 6 or so years and i seriusly puked 25 times that day. i layed around all day (from 6 a.m. to aroung 8 p.m.) when my girlfriend got home and told me that we are going to the hospital because there has got to be somthing seriously wrong. well we were at the hospital for around 4 hours while they filled me up with about 2 liters of fluids through i.v. and some other stuff. i was hurtimg so bad i couldent bend in any direction it hurt to move my legs or lean to the side or stand up and sit down. When i wnt home i still felt horrible then i finally went to sleep. i woke up the next day and puked 1 or 2 more times and then that was over with. then i was totaly sore for a week to a week and a half afterwords. i had to seriously lift up my legs gust to get them into the car that how under powerd i was and how painfull it was. for a whole week at least i had to have people help he standup and sit down and just do whatever. the doctor told me it was some sort of poison/toxin but it didnt seem like saminila or food poisoning and no i know exactly what it was........man that was hell. from now on i am going to use gloves!!!!!

[Azgasser]

Originally posted by Nagel
dpnshnks

Second, it is ONE of the most powerful naturally occurring toxins.. I don't see people getting palytoxin shots, but I do see botox shots..

This is because botulinum toxin works at the neuromuscular junction synapse by cleaving a protien that aids in neural transmission. Palytoxin works through a different mechanism. Either way, both can be leathal when administered in the wrong dosage or method. Plus, clostridium bacteria are a hell of a lot easier to grow than these darn Zoo's.

[supaboy1981]

I actually got some frags yesterday from a member here. he went on attempting to pull them apart with his bare hands emitting all kinds of mucus and juice everywhere. In the middle of this he looks at me and goes "ohh you gatta be carefull with these things, their toxic". If reefcentral isnt on a messed up time system he just posted a bit ago and is apperantly online right now.

Today I was arranging them cause I didnt glue them to anything and I remember I have a few cuts on my hands and I was handling them and moving them around. I remember another reefer talking about a metallic taste in his mouth when fragging and it got my brain working. I have spent the last 1 -2 hours reading about the signs of becoming intoxicated by these guys and during that time my mind has played mean tricks on me from tingling in my body seeing colors. I chaulk that up to being pumped up on adrenaline. After reading this I got scared, relieved, and scared again only to be relieved once more. I dunno if the particular ones I got are toxic at all but I am probably gonne get some gloves from the vet just to be on the safe side.

[reefkeeper59]

Intersting fact

On Thursday May 5th I was fragging a large colony of Protopalythoa. I have done this many times before, however this time the colony I was working on was very heavly populated and very dense. There wasn't a lot of room between the polyps to snip. I tried to make my cuts as close to the center (between) of polyps as possible, but cut a few polyps open. I noticed the fluid in them got on my fingers. Being aware of the palitoxin, I rinsed my fingers in a cup of fresh water than I had used early as a dip.

About another 5-10 minutes goes by and I cut another Protopalythoa clump then pulled apart the last connected piece. I ripped two in half and a large amount of fluid or water came out again. This time it got on my right thumb where I had a small cut. Within about 2 or 3 minutes, my left hand started trembling and then the right hand, I'm getting dizzy and feel like I'm going to pass out. Little short of breath. I thought about waking my girl friend and telling her to get ready to take me to the hospital.

I went to the kitchen rinsed my hands and went back to tank stood there for a few minutes and felt ok.

I just had a total physical on Mar 24th.Everthing ok except cholesterol.

Not sure if that was from the Protopalythoa, but it hasn't happened since.

Any idea?

[xacttech]

I never wear gloves (soon to change) and have felt the effects of Zoos. Any time I move around my colonies, or attempt to frag a certain colony, my chest gets tight, and I have shortness of breath. It's never lasted more than about 15 minutes, and has never been enough to really scare me, but now I'm reconsidering my disregard for concern.

I've also had a case of what I thought was food poisoning, which now makes me second guess that. I haven't vomited in several years (over 4) and one day out of the blue (don't remember my tank tasks for the day) I get sick, and start throwing up. I chalk it up to food poisoning, but I'm fairly new to the hobby, and it was around the time of a tanks swap.

I also have had incidents where my arm felt numb for almost a full day, just kind of achy, throbby and numb. I love zoos, guess it's time for gloves.

[musicsmaker]

If you are getting those sensations and they seem associated with tank maintenance, you should get you some gloves. Don't assume that it is the zoanthids, rather be suspicious of the whole tank. All, or least most, corals have toxins.

[rsteagall]

Has anyone posted a link to a list of the ones that are the most toxic or what is the toxicity of each type of zoa?

[belikej]

Poison arrow frogs are not poisonous in captivity because their poison comes from a diet realized only in the wild. I wonder if the same, or a similar dependancy is true of zooanthids? Or possibly only certain types carry the toxin.

As many people have reported ill effects from working with zoas as those who have reported none. Thats a key point.

I think this warrants a task which should be enjoyable for most reefkeepers: Those who have experienced ill effects should list the zoas they were working with when the side effects happened.


We can cross reference them with people who have not had side effects and possibly create an unofficial list of toxic zoas.

[DgenR8]

Just how allergic you are to a particular "toxin" could have everything to do with why some people have problems, and some people not.
Zoas could all be poisonous, just not all reefkeepers are susceptible.

[gio17vani]

Hmm maybe I'm immune, stupid, lucky, or some combination because I have bare handed my zoos everytime I got them, shipped them, or moved them and have never felt the least bit affected. Will be using gloves now though.

[itsme123]

Just also like to report my experiences for the record. I've also had symptoms described herp_house and xacttech. I never feel any nausea enough to make me throw up (hate throwing up), but about a month ago, I got what I thought was either food poisoning or a mind flu. But I never felt like that before. My whole body ached, I was nausiated (sp) for about 2 days and had severe head ache for about 3 days. The whole episode lasted for about 3-4 days. After the episode, I started to think that I was probabbly poisoned by something and not the usual food borne illness or flu. It just had different symptoms then what I usually associate with "regular" illness.

Then just yesterday, I pull a rock out which was attached to a colony of zoo and I experienced (similar) what reefkeeper59 experience. About 30 seconds after I pull the rock breaking the zoo colony apart, I started to feel shorness of breath, numbness across my face, tunnel vision (slight), wanting to pass out and general panic. I rushed to the sink and washed my hands off with hot water and soap. Then the feeling went away after about 10 minutes or so. Was ready to tell my wife to take me the hospital or call 911 if I pass out.

All this (both events) while wearing disposible wrist length nitrile gloves (the blue ones) and knowing the risk involved with zoos. Always aware of cuts on my hands/arms and have avoided putting hands in my tank if I have them. Also all cuts and wounds are always sealed up with Band Aid Liquid Bandage if I had to stick my hands in. I've had reef tanks for well over 3+ years and there is not 1 week (minimum) where I don't go in for something. BUT, I've only started to keep zoos since about 9 month ago.

Off to order some shoulder length gloves...... :D

BTW, I am also religeous about washing my hands after touching my tank.

[CrazyLionfish]

Ahh this is freaking me out. And to tell you the trush I don't believe it. I didn't read all 7 pgs because I have to leave soon, but I've never heard any thing like this before. I handled my two new zoo frags by hand, as did the owner of them at the frag swap, as did the guy taht bagged them with oxygen. I didn't feel anything that I know of. How is it released? I touched them a lot when I first put them in the tank adn didn't feel again, I don't get it.

[CrazyLionfish]

I hate to say that I can't believe it is all. All it is, is people saying "i think i got this toxin from my zoos" and then someone else saying "i don't think you did". No proof or experiments. Someone go do a highly technological experiment on them and then post the facts PLEASE

[itsme123]

Gotta remember, not all zoos and palys contain the toxin. Plus you have to factor in different sensitivity levels of different inidviduals to the different levels of toxins. Granted, if you have a gaping wound and is rubbing the wound with zoo juice with paly toxin, then you are gonna die. But the fact of the matter is that some zoos and palys DO contain the toxin, and extreme caution needs to be taken. Better to be safe then sorry.

BTW, I really thought I was going to die when I felt weird, no jokes. Maybe it was not the zoos, but what ever it was, it was in the tank.

[CrazyLionfish]

whats a paly? a type of polyp?

[Nagel]

Palythoa polyp or Protopalythoa polyp.. The more common ones to contain the toxin.. Zoanthids are much less common to contain the toxin..

We're not telling you to scare you, we just want people to take the proper precautions..

[pco1988]

sorry for your loss...i also have two dogs and i put my hands in my tanks all the time where there are five zoo colonies...i think i'll be more careful now...

[CrazyLionfish]

I still don't believe it haha. After 7 pgs of a thread, and really no proof, I dunno! Someone do an experiment :P

[Nagel]

I have some protopalythoas that I've felt the effects of Crazylionfish.. Shall I make you a Palythoa milkshake to test it out?

Your choice to believe or not. Till you have felt the effects (and I didn't for a number of years), you really don't know, do ya?

[CrazyLionfish]

lol sorry, I don't mean to insult you, its just that I've seen so many people handle them and have no affects, and it seems like this thread is just to scare everyone. I know its really to inform people of the possible risk, but the chance of getting it from zoos, from what I've seen, is very low.

[blackjacks_mom]

Originally posted by CrazyLionfish
lol sorry, I don't mean to insult you, its just that I've seen so many people handle them and have no affects, and it seems like this thread is just to scare everyone. I know its really to inform people of the possible risk, but the chance of getting it from zoos, from what I've seen, is very low.
I'd say it could be like a bee sting; some people react, some don't. But the fact remains, some *do*, and those that have had a reaction are only sharing their experiences.

If you read the story of the poor dog that died the same day he chewed on a zoo rock, you'd be a believer. It's referenced in this thread, and it's a very sad thing. :(

[CrazyLionfish]

I did read it and I am very sorry for the guy and the dog, but there was no proof!!!

[Nagel]

A number of reputable people have felt the effects.. Anthony Calfo himself has been "tagged" at least three times, and I think he KNOWS what he's doing.. Like I said, I've handled zoanthids for a number of years, and only felt it a few times (couple that with the fact that I part-timed in a LFS for 3 years and touched thousands of colonies, never with gloves mind you).. Most didn't bother me, but when I got tagged, I KNEW I got tagged... I know what ones in my tank can do that to me, and 95% of my zoanthids don't bother me..

But it is like bee stings.. Some people may be more affected then others..

Not to mention, I certainly wouldn't risk the lives of my dogs on it.. They pick up lots of stuff on the floor and chew on it, so I put not one, but two doors between the "living" portion of the house and the fishroom.. Dogs are NOT allowed in there, I certainly don;t need the guilt of being the cause for one of them leaving us early..

This thread is a caution about the potentials, not a "Don't buy them cause they are toxic" thread. We give you the tools and knowledge, but only you can put that to work for yourself..

[CrazyLionfish]

Yes I understand, thanks. Not to be rude, but you might as well have a thread about anemone toxicity, beacause some people are so sensative to their stings that they can prove fatal as well.

And me - as a new reefer, after reading this thread, appeared to be totally discouraged from every buying another colony. And I don't have any other pets besides fish, so I won't have to worry about that :) thank god

And how did you know you got tagged, what did you experience?

[Nagel]

Well, this IS the zoanthid forum, not the clownfish and anemone forum LOL

As for what you feel when you get tagged.. Numbness, usually along the arm that I used to touch them (mind you I probably had some small cut too, thats how it got into my system, it really wont penetrate skin too easily).. Taste of copper in your mouth (toss a penny in your mouth for a few minutes, you'll know what I mean).. a little nausea too, luckily no heart rate increase, but that can happen to some people..

Just use common sense, frag in water (so you dont get squirted in the eye, thats even more direct that a cut on your hand), dont frag with cuts on your hands (even hangnail / cuticles are potential entrances) and wear gloves if you aren't sure..

[CrazyLionfish]

Okay thanks for clerifying.

[gerwen]

Skeptics:
Fact 1: Some zoanthids carry a deadly poison
Fact 2: We keep zoanthids in our aquariums
Fact 3: Many reefkeepers report symptoms consistant with being poisoned

Maybe we don't keep the deadly zoanthids in our aquariums, and maybe the reported symptoms have nothing to do with zoanthids. Without being able to confidently say that the zoanthids we keep don't carry poison and aren't responsible for the symptoms reported, it is folly to not consider the possibility that something in our tanks can hurt or even kill us, family members, or our pets.

You can walk by a poisonous snake a thousand times without getting bit, but that doesn't mean it won't kill you the next time.

Ignoring the danger could get you, or someone you love seriously hurt.

To any who have stated that noone has heard about anyone getting killed by this:

If a zoanthid toxin caused heart failure and death in a reefkeeper who had no idea of the danger, what are the chances that it would eventually get traced back to his tank?

My money is on slim to none. The danger isn't exactly common knowledge even among reefkeepers, why assume that the medical trade would be better informed and spot the source? Perhaps more than a few have died and had their deaths attributed to other causes.

With all that being said, i would like to say that i don't promote getting rid of your zoos. Just please be responsible about keeping them. Wear gloves, clean up thoroughly. Be aware that anything coming out of your tank (including your hands) could be toxic and act accordingly.

[funkpacket]

just thought id add my sole experiece with possible zoo toxin. I have a fledgling 5.5 gallon reef tank with only lr, snails, and approximately 10 individual zoo polyps. I do a fair amount of work with my hands doing auto repairs and woodworking, so i typically have small nicks and cuts on my hands. When aquascaping the tank and doing maintenance i have used gloves mainly to keep the tank safe from me, not to shield myself from potential hazards in the tank. One day a small amount of water entered the gloves i was using, soon after finding its way down to a cut on my thumb. About five minutes later i was hit with a rush of nausea, confusion, and profuse sweating. It only took a few minutes for the sensations to subside, but the experience made a definite impression on me as to the potency of certain elements in the reef environment. I wish i would have read a thread such as this prior to purchasing zoos.

p.s. MY LFS NEVER INFORMED ME OF ZOO TOXICITY!

[itsme123]

Originally posted by funkpacket

p.s. MY LFS NEVER INFORMED ME OF ZOO TOXICITY!

Sometimes I really wish LFS would be a bit more responsible and Knowledgeable in informing hobbyists about dangers of certain species. When I was a really young (and before internet) I loved to keep Lion Fishes. Never ever knew (stupid I know, but I was a kid) that Lion Fishes can sting with their fins untill my mom got stung while cleaning the tank....... But that's another topic/thread.

[CrazyLionfish]

Sorry, but, what happened to your mom from the sting? Sorry for changing the thread.

[itsme123]

Her ring finger swelled up to twice the normal size and it was purple! It was the most painfull thing she ever experience (except child birth). Good thing she was not allergic to the venom and there was no need to amputate. All was well after about 2-3 weeks.

[musicsmaker]

Originally posted by itsme123
Never ever knew (stupid I know, but I was a kid) that Lion Fishes can sting with their fins My good friend got a lionfish, and that lfs never mentioned the poison sting. They also tried to put both of the frags I bought in the same bag. No sir. ;)

[CrazyLionfish]

Sorry-all-but-my-spacebar-is-broken.-so-bare-with-me.

Musicsmaker-why-not-put-two-frags-in-the-same-bag?-too-much-toxin?fight-eachother?

[musicsmaker]

My bad, I should clarify. They were acro frags, and yes they participate in chemical warfare. They might have survived, but why stress the animals? With zoanthids I have put several frags in the same bag with no problems. They're tough critters.

[nonamesright]

i just bought some zoos and will be putting them in the tank (GASP) barehanded!!! I shall report the effects in a bit. ps, i have 3 cuts, 2 on my left hand, one on my right forearm.

[nonamesright]

ok, just dropped in and no issues (except for me dropping the bag the colony was in creating an acclimation time of about 2 seconds.)

ok, now 10 mins later, still nothing.

ok, now 15 minutes later, still nothing, and i think it will stay this way.

(p.s., despite the quick acclimation some of the zoos have opened up already and I think they will be o.k.)

[Brian_Babcock]

Maybe your dog died of salt poising, your dog would not have to drink much water to get sick and pass. Salt poisoning would be slow as you had mentioned. Sorry to hear about your loss

[CrazyLionfish]

Excellent point Brian. If he was in the tub of water, he most likely drank some. And who knows maybe their was some type of weird bacteria in it that the dog could not handle.

[rhoodhouse]

Thank you for this information....

[trippyl]

Can someone just explain how to tell the difference between zoa's and polys? I can't tell by the pic posted which are which, how do I know whether my zoa's are actually zoas?

[CrazyLionfish]

Zoas are flat polyps. Its the easiest way to describe them they don't really have "stalks" like the other polyps.

[skippysmind]

I'll make some zoo brownies tomorrow and let you all know how it turns out. if you don't see another post from me in a few days you will all know the tragic results.

[cmhollis]

Do a google for "Ag-Tek Poly Sleeves". I had my vet order me a pack of 100, he charged me $35. They can be had online for much cheaper.

[oddiseus]

Wow, I have been aquaculturing zoo's for about a year. I even yank them off some rocks and watch them ooze that gooey little substance. I have done all this with bare hands and I wouldn't doubt that I have even had cuts on my hands on several occasions. I am fine, I have never even had the slightest irritation. I couldn't even finish reading all of the 8 pages in this post because it is rediculous. Yes I'm sure that zoo's contain polytoxin to some extent but I think that most people are just freaking out a wee bit too much. If it were something to worry about then I'm sure pet stores would have to start putting stickers on the bags, or signs in the store or on the glass that state that you could potentially DIE from handling this product. The point is this is a bit too much. I have clipped zoo's. Smashed rock to pieces to make frags (probably smashing several zoo's too) I have used razor blades to extract them from the rock and all this at the same time I pull my hand out of my bins dry them off (not wash mind you) and grab my subway sandwich and take a huge bite. I am fine. I think that some freak occurences do happen. I'm sure there is people and pets out there that are severly allergic to the excretions from zoo's but I think if we did a poll we would find most people handle thier zoo's bare handed and have for years without any ill affects.. This is all just my honest oppinion and I'm sure others agree.

-Odd

[DgenR8]

While I agree that there is some over reaction in parts of this thread, I don't agree that if Zoas were dangerous there would be a warning. Lion fish, Rabbit fish, Amenones, etc. are all extremely dangerous if mishandled, yet they don't come with a warning.
The point of this thread is to create awareness, and suggest caution be used when handling a POTENTIALLY dangerous animal.

[glyle41]

I know i am new to this forum but i do have a little experience with some of my palyothoas numbing my whole right arm from coming in contact with the mucous they were excreting this is just one small colony i have that seems to be this potent i frag my zoos bare handed all the time just dont handle this one colony without my gloves just my experience and by the way these are very common green and brown variety that i see everywhere for sale dont know if they are all this potent or just htis particular group????

[stlsaltwater]

I had one squirt me in the eye, when i was gluein him on a rock!!!

[bendavis]

thanks, i am scared of my zoos now...

[CrazyLionfish]

I agree that it is an over reaction. I mean, I'm glad you are trying to make us be cautious. But I think it only happens to certain people, with certain colonys, at certain moments. Are you 100% glyle41 that it was the zoas that numbed your arm? And how long was it numb for? But if we have this thread, why don't we have a "Warning: Lionfish" thread?

[DgenR8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6261141#post6261141 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CrazyLionfish
But if we have this thread, why don't we have a "Warning: Lionfish" thread?

In short, I'd guess because most people, even those not in this hobby have heard somewhere that Lionfish can sting you.

[CrazyLionfish]

That is a good point, I had a friend of mine once I told him I had a lionfish, "COULDN'T THAT THING KILL YOU?!" haha. Sorry that last post was kind of harsh. I was more cautious with my zoos after reading this, it's just that I don't like accepting things as fact until they're proven as fact, and most of the zoo related injuries on here are "I think my zoos did this" not "It was found that my arm contained zoo toxin" or something along those lines.

[musicsmaker]

That could very well be so. I think if a person were to be hit with palytoxin, they would be hospitalized if not dead. I would suspect some other irritant in situations where a limb went numb, or a burning sensation was felt.

[NanoCube-boy]

Wow, I just bought some Zoos and only know the basic. I didn't even know that they were this deadly? I got kids around, touching the water... Does the toxic get the water?

[milkshake]

Good.....now I know how to get rid of the cat

[NanoCube-boy]

what are the symtoms? can the toxic gets in the water? i been touching it with my bare hands, well I have no cuts though, is that bad? I do handle other corals in the tank also in the tank.

[CrazyLionfish]

Symptoms are usually serious pain, swelling, trouble breathing I believe. I think it can get into the water, but not all zoos have the toxins (from what I've seen/heard very few do) and if you don't have a cut on your hands you should be fine. I think most corals have some kind of toxin they can release, but most are not potent.

[hllywd]

Wow... maybe this thread will take pressure off of the guns...:cool:

Seriously I think this has the tones urban legends are made of. Sorry for the negative opinion but if pet zoas were killing people, it's oddball enough, it would be in the news.
Maybe someone has links to some of these news stories???

[Nagel]

hllywd,

no urban legend.. Do a google search for Palytoxin.. Then you will see. It is one of the most potent toxins that occurs naturally. Where does this toxin come from? Palthoa, Protopalythoa, and occassionally Zoanthids..

Most peoples contact will not kill them.. If you get "tagged" most likely you will feel numbness in the affected arm, tase copper in your mouth and feel short of breath.. The effects should wear off. However, if you ATE a toxic polyp, well, I wouldn't want to be you..

The caution is more for reefers with pets and children that don't know any better. And god forbid you have an allergic reaction. People HAVE been killed by bee stings, this is no different..

[NanoCube-boy]

Yup, it is true..

[hllywd]

I don't doubt the existence of "palytoxin", I do think it's not the danger in the aquarium it's hyped to be here or they're would be a lot of dead and disabled reefers. I draw the paralell to "urban legends" due to the fact most of these reports are attributable to reports from a friend, of a friend, of a friend's ,brotherinlaw's, sister's, aunt's, co-worker's, stockbroker...

Nobody can cite a direct, documented response. Nobody saw the dog eat the zoa. I had my hand in the aquarium and my hand swelled up and got itchy later, etc...

Are these reports caused by allergies, stings, or something you picked up at the gym????

My family, (parents, siblings, grandparents, kids, etc), as far as I know have never nearly to a person, had any allergies. The exception I know of is my niece is lactose intolerant. When we were kids, one of my brothers came in one day and his hand was swelling up, by the time it was done his hand and forearm were swollen twice their normal size, no other symptoms, marks, ideas for why. In a few days he was fine again. My point is it's the same type of thing with no proof what happened. If he had a reef tank with zoas and he had been fragging them that morning, would he have blamed the zoas?

There's no doubt we keep things that could be harmful if not handled safely. I think the zoa thing is being hyped without real proof.

[musicsmaker]

I've stated many times in this thread that if you were to be intoxicated with actual palytoxin that you would not be feeling an itchy sensation, or other minor symptoms.

Palytoxin is a (coronary) vasoconstrictor. If it gets you, you will most likely die.

60 MICROgrams killed a dog, and yes this is documented. It only took five minutes. What actually killed the dog? I'm guessing lack of oxygen to the brain. The circulatory system becomes so constricted that blood can't flow normally. Major organs suffer from anoxia, or lack of oxygen. The brain is a major organ that becomes damaged after, oh, about five minutes with no oxygen.

Corals have stinging cells, as well as chemicals that they use in warfare. These are the most likely cause of the itching, swelling, burning, and/or numbness that is often reported in this thread as well as other threads. So, in a way you are correct.

The fact of the matter is that palytoxin is/can be found in corals that get the common name zoanthids. That is the only place that it is naturally produced.

[hllywd]

I'm going to belabor the point and ask how do we know 60ug killed the dog? The dog had it's head in a tub that happened to have zoas in it hours earlier? Maybe I missed something, I admit I didn't read the whole thread. All the hand wringing with no real proof zoas have killed reefers or their dogs or for that matter even made them sick made me not want to continue. Nothing acute like a bee sting or a snake bite as evidence to support the conjecture.

Again I won't dispute some zoas may contain palytoxin, but how much does a polyp contain? Is it transfered with their sting or do you have to ingest/inject them? Would I have to eat 100 of them or simply have to swallow some tank water at water change time?

Just my POV...


:cool:

[musicsmaker]

The dog I was talking about was not the one in the story, I should have been more specific. That bit of information comes from google searches on palytoxin itself.

I said micrograms, but I stand corrected. It is actually NANOgrams which is a billionth of a gram.

60 billionths of a gram kills a dog.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sci/chem-faq/part2/section-3.html
Ricin is a toxin lectin and hemagglutinin isolated from the castor bean.
Merck reports the lethal dose in mice as 1 microgram of ricin D nitrogen
(ip) per kg, and that ricin molecular weight is about 65,000. Ricin has
been shown to contain four lectins, of which the RCL III (aka Ricin D )
and RCL IV are the toxins. Merck also reports the following LD50 per kg
of bodyweight:-

Toxin Dose Test Animal
palytoxin 60 nanograms dog (iv)
( from coral ) 450 " mouse (iv)
( C129H223N3054 ) 50-100 " " (ip)
saxitoxin 3-5 micrograms mouse (iv)
( from shellfish ) 10 " " (ip)
( [C10H17N7O4]2+ ) 263 " " (oral).
tetrodotoxin 10 " mouse (ip)
( from globefish )
aflatoxin M1 332 micrograms duckling (oral)
aflatoxin M2 1.2 milligrams " "
aflatoxin B1 364 micrograms duckling (oral)
aflatoxin B2 1.6 milligrams " "
aflatoxin G1 784 micrograms " "
aflatoxin G2 3.4 milligrams " "

[musicsmaker]

Also, the quote in my very first post on page one was from a scientific paper. Sorry, the link is now dead. Read the bold print in my quote.

[musicsmaker]

One more PS. It is water soluble and is stable in seawater.

[CrazyLionfish]

Sorry I'm a lil confused with what you're saying. Just to clerify, was there any amount of the actual toxin found in the dog? I saw you said it was documented above, is there a website with the info, or is it documented in a way that we can't see?

I am in no way saying this poison is not dangerous, or that some zoos do not contain it. I just would really like to see something saying "After test results .5 nanograms were found within the dogs bloodstream" something like that.

Edit: I see now what you posted something about amount needed to kill different animals? Not sure what those numbers are of. It appears as if they added more and more until the creature died? Or are estimating from calculations? But that still doesn't show the connection between the poison and zoos, just showing that the poison itself, is dangerous (as we all know)

[tygger]

I started reading this thread and it seems to be going back and forth... what's the bottom line???

Do I need to wear gloves or not when handling zoas?

[dwdenny]

I always wore gloves when I messed with my old tank and it was a FOWLR but that was me. I dont think I would take the risk and wear them.

[CrazyLionfish]

I agree. This thread, although I am not 100% convinced, has discouraged me from purchasing any zoos. I just would really like to see some actual 100% true scientific proof, there's just too many "I think" "maybe" or claims with no info to back them up!

[musicsmaker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6756376#post6756376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tygger
Do I need to wear gloves or not when handling zoas? It is a good idea to wear gloves any time you are in a tank. Mycobacterium marium can live in our tanks and that alone is nasty enough. Shouldn't kill you, but wow it can mess you up. Do a search here in the expert forums. Freaky stuff.

[musicsmaker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6750871#post6750871 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CrazyLionfish
Just to clerify, was there any amount of the actual toxin found in the dog? Not that I'm aware of in the thread where the dog had his head in the tub. FWIW, there have been documented cases of dogs chewing on corals found on the beach, and dying soon after. I don't think it's a good idea to be chewing on corals. :D

I see now what you posted something about amount needed to kill different animals? Not sure what those numbers are of. It appears as if they added more and more until the creature died? Or are estimating from calculations? But that still doesn't show the connection between the poison and zoos, just showing that the poison itself, is dangerous (as we all know) The numbers in the chart show amounts that kill animals in experiments. (Not that I condone that). The chart is much easier to read if you click on the link and view the original website.

[hllywd]

FWIW, there have been documented cases of dogs chewing on corals found on the beach, and dying soon after

Where can this documentation be found?

[JmLee]

so wait.... zoas arent lethal towards fish?. Ive seen my brothers queen angel eat a whole colony LoL and the fish is fine...

[Sk8r]

A quick search on the internet turned up info that 'sea mat' zooanthids could be toxic, those having continuous tissue at the base, vs. 'button polyps' which do not...just an fyi. Certainly it's worth knowing, and certain individuals could have a greater sensitivity than others---but an outright toxin, which they're talking about for this one variety is definitely to avoid: there's allergies or sensitivities, and then there's toxicity. IMHO, I'm going to handle mine with more respect. I did notice that the cited species had shorter, thicker 'eyelashes' than I'm used to seeing.

[birdfish]

Hi all,

First, I would agree that it is always better to use gloves when handling anything coral or rock from saltwater. I can't tell you how many times I found something biting, pinching, or piercing
by surprise. Salt gives it a nice twist too. But I have been in the business handling everything that is imported for many many years. My hands, like everyone's actually handling the stuff in LA
are both complete with fairly open wounds, and no gloves, ever.
In decades I do not know of one instance of anyone in the industry in LA having a reaction, despite literally thousands of employees touching zoos without gloves, probably hundreds of thosands of times. So, yes there is poison there. Can a type come in with it, of course. Can something bad happen? Yes.
The chances are far less than one in a million, or, dying from a bee sting, getting hit by lightning, attacked by a shark, and you
will surely get in an auto accident first.

birdfish

[NanoCube-boy]

hmm... i just finished working on my tank cleaning and found out i have a small sting like cut. I'm not sure how i got it be darn, making worry now.

[hllywd]

Wash it, put some neosporin on and let us know if you live...:D

[NanoCube-boy]

haha, I wash the crap out of my hands that night. I didn't have Alcohol, but I have listerine. I rinse and damp with Listerine for awhile and I woke up with my tummy feeling numb. I never woke with a numb belly, I might just sleep wrong. I doubted that it gotten something to do with the zoanthids. MAybe...

[hllywd]

Sounds like too much beer to me nano...:cool:

[NanoCube-boy]

haha, no... I don't drnk. I have never drink any beer yet.

[Lord Voldemort]

After clicking on random forums and threads I can't believe I found this :eek2:

[hllywd]

Lucky you...:rolleyes:

:cool:

[don954]

well, anyone got a rat and a syringe? :>

[jessiesgrrl]

ROTFL....!! Anyone remember the rat from Charlotte's Web? I doubt even Templeton would deserve an end like THAT! Of course, women in CA inject neurotoxin into their faces everyday... Botox is Botulinum toxin, after all.

So maybe he would just end up a very unwrinkly sort of rat!

Laurie

[Fmellish]

My friend got very ill after zoanthid mucus, (from a tear in the zoanthid), got into a cut on his hand.

His arm went numb, he had ringing in his ears. If you can any open flesh in the water I'd wear gloves.

Josh

[hllywd]

Is there some way your friend knows without a doubt it wasn't something else that caused the symtoms? Was the reaction instantaneous so there was no doubt? Was this a test to investigate toxicity, i.e. open cut and rub a torn zoanthid into it?
What were the circumstances?

I'm really trying to understand, hundreds of people here with experience and yet all the warning stories are he said, she said types of information. Many, even in this thread claim to have had "frag juice" all over their hands with no ill effects at all, I have in fact.

Personally I believe these claims need evidence to back them up to be credible.

Again I have no doubts there may be toxic zoanthids, nearly everything here has an urban legend quality though.

Sorry, still my opinion.

Tim

[reefer5060]

today i had a loose zoa polyp come into direct contact with a cut on my finger ( the cut was open) and i am feeling no effects .

[jessiesgrrl]

As far as credible, I would suggest checking out the info Bob Fenner has on zoanthid care and toxicity on Wet Web Media. That should get rid of the urban legend quality...

Neurotoxins are serious stuff and occur naturally many places in nature, as well as your home. For example, botulinum toxin (botulism) is an anerobic bacterium that can occur quite naturally inyour kitchen cabinet that has any can containing a protein. The can bulges from the bacterial growth, the bacteria produce the toxin as a waste product of consuming the protein and there you go. As for the power of it, well, all those women in California, etc getting rid of wrinkles with Botox are using a neurotoxin directly injected to paralyze facial muscles. FYI, your local emergency department only carries the most common antivenoms. They would not have near the space to carry them all, or the money to keep them on hand as they expire.

I would be careful with all of them as a precaution (Especially Palythoa) - and double check me with Mr. Fenner.

Have a great day
Laurie

[NanoCube-boy]

I knew the zoanthids are toxic, how do you guys frag it? What coloris there toxic?

[hllywd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7713045#post7713045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jessiesgrrl
As far as credible, I would suggest checking out the info Bob Fenner has on zoanthid care and toxicity on Wet Web Media. That should get rid of the urban legend quality...

Neurotoxins are serious stuff and occur naturally many places in nature, as well as your home. For example, botulinum toxin (botulism) is an anerobic bacterium that can occur quite naturally inyour kitchen cabinet that has any can containing a protein. The can bulges from the bacterial growth, the bacteria produce the toxin as a waste product of consuming the protein and there you go. As for the power of it, well, all those women in California, etc getting rid of wrinkles with Botox are using a neurotoxin directly injected to paralyze facial muscles. FYI, your local emergency department only carries the most common antivenoms. They would not have near the space to carry them all, or the money to keep them on hand as they expire.

I would be careful with all of them as a precaution (Especially Palythoa) - and double check me with Mr. Fenner.

Have a great day
Laurie

"Mr Fenner's" web site isn't real easy to look up exactly what you're intending to find, however I did find the Hawaiian tide pool disertation again there on how palytoxin was supposedly discovered. I've never said I doubted the existance of the toxin, only the posts here that make the claims of the fiddler's dog eating a rock with some zoanthids attached and keeling over.

Again I question, does it take one polyp or 29 acres of polyps concentrated to make enough toxin to be bothersome? If it were 1 polyp the things would have been outlawed from sale a long time ago because of high numbers of dead LFS kids.

I realize many toxins such as botulinum occur naturally and even in the home from immproperly preserved foods... What I don't understand is what "California women" injecting it in their faces has to do with the subject at hand...:confused: If we want to go there what the heck does California have to do with it? It's advertised locally here in NW Ohio. I'd rather see less wrinkles in older ladies than more of the freakshow piercings and hardware people are putting in their faces (and other body locations for that matter)...:rolleyes:

Back on topic, there may be some factual info in this thread, I believe the "urban legend" quality I've addressed is from hearsay and exagerated stories from well meaning individuals hoping to avert disaster based on unsubstantiated information.

Tim:cool:

[azrien]

I just handled a tiny (1" x 1/2") colony of zoas, my very first, bare-handed. No cuts on the hand but no protective gear either. I did wash my hands afterwards and it is only an hour or two after the handling so I'm not feeling anything yet. I think I will order gloves, however. I don't think I've heard of the zoa toxicity up until now. Thanks again for the heads up.

I'm a bit worried now..

[OrionN]

this is a useful blast from the past.

[Dewey115]

I dont think the point of this topic is to spread fear but more of a caution that there is a CHANCE that something bad could happen. Has anyone at all seen ANY study of any kind or even a decent experiment done that shows that zoos cause absolutely no health risks? What about even a poor experiment? Just because you dont see something doesn't means it isn't there. Thats called ignorance and many many people have died from ignorance.

It is not hard to prove that SOME do contain toxins and while I am not trying to imply we are all in danger, I think it is completely irresponsible for people not to voice a word of caution about them. I cant think of anything more stupid than taking a risk that could kill you or someone you love, when all it takes to prevent is a little caution and some gloves... are you guys that cheap? Hell I bet there are people that will buy you gloves if you cant afford them (in which case you are definately in the wrong hobby anyway). Thats like saying you wont use a condom during random sex because you never got AIDS before and that you dont think this person has it.

And for the "LFS couldn't sell it if it is dangerous" argument. There are many fish that are toxic that are quite easy to buy... puffers are well known to be deadly if you eat the wrong part of them, but you could also die if you cut up the puffer in the tank then bit your fingernails. Lionfish are toxic and while they dont kill you, dont you think someone out there would have sued if they could? Yet it has never happened because there is no way to connect the LFS to the incident. If you are careless then why would a pet store be at fault? Answer: They aren't as long as they didn't lie to you about it and pass it off as safe. What about suing walmart because someone bought a knife from there that they used to kill your relative? That is not the way it works, please dont try to downplay something that CAN KILL YOU just because you want to live in ignorance or play devils advocate... especially when you dont have even close to all the facts. And actually there isn't a person alive that has all the facts about this. Marine fish and animals in general are some of the least understood creatures on earth... but I dont see how lack of information equals "safe". This has the potential to be a very bad thing and people are only trying to get the word out so that others can be informed and stay safe... and they are getting jumped on because some people dont want to believe or they never got sick... does this seem ludicrous to anyone else besides me?

Sorry for the nature of this post, but if there is even a tiny chance of me dying or even getting sick from them than I want to know about it and others have the right to know as well. Unless you have some facts or at least some LOGIC please dont post saying that they are all safe and its just made up. I would rather be alive, 5 minutes slower working on my tank, and $12 poorer than dead with an extra $12 in my pocket... seems pretty simple to me :-/

[Dewey115]

As to specifics on what is or is not safe, the only answer is that nobody really knows. Not because it is a huge mystery we cant solve but more that there are just so many things in the ocean we dont understand, this is just one of the countless things we dont know yet. Color is probably not an accurate way to even guess how safe or not a polyp could be. Zoanthids can change and morph colors quite rapidly and what was red last month could be orange or yellow in a few more. Color is more a result of the algae inside of them than what species they are. I have had some colonies change colors quite drastically and even gain markings that they didn't have previously. Color in zoanthis is never a scientific way to identify them. I also am not aware of anyone that has learned how the toxin is produced. It may be something that happens only in nature (and so maybe only very newly imported ones could have it) or maybe only from certain regions of the world or maybe... or maybe... who knows, but thats kind of the point. We know too little at this point to be able to say ANYTHING with much accuracy. Its better to be cautious when you dont know much about an animal that can kill you.

It is likely however that the toxin is there to prevent things from eating the colonies, so probably just touching the zoos wouldn't be a risk. More likely is that eating or injuring the polyp to release the toxin (and then getting the toxin into your body) is the primary (maybe only) way to put yourself at any real risk.

[Don Lino]

I wanted to know if this is what the toxins look like when they are being released from the Zoas?? I noticed this today from a shipment I received. This happened right after I placed it into the tank.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j128/JoelGarcia_photos/1-10.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j128/JoelGarcia_photos/2-8.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j128/JoelGarcia_photos/3-7.jpg

[hllywd]

Don Lino,

Nobody here has a clue which zoas may carry palytoxin, what color(s) or other features they may have, if they are available to the aquarium trade or anything else factual for that matter.

Yours look stressed from shipping, maybe it is the toxin, more likely it something else from the stress I would say.

Be a skeptic and don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Tim

[hllywd]

BTW... Did you touch them when you were putting them in the tank?

[Don Lino]

Thanks so much hllywd, this made me very alert and skeptical of even keeping them. I did touch them when placing them in the tank and after they let the fumes out...I dont have any open cuts or anything though, and I eally dont feel any different. Thanks

[NanoCube-boy]

I highly recommend you to use gloves when handle these, even if you don't have cuts. Might want to wear something that cover your face as well to protect you mouth, eyes and nose. These guys are extremely toxin and you shouldn't take at risk.

[DgenR8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8189366#post8189366 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hllywd
Don Lino,

Nobody here has a clue which zoas may carry palytoxin, what color(s) or other features they may have, if they are available to the aquarium trade or anything else factual for that matter.

Yours look stressed from shipping, maybe it is the toxin, more likely it something else from the stress I would say.

Be a skeptic and don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Tim


I completely agree that there is plenty of faulty information on the Internet, and we should all be aware of that fact. However, there are some very bright people in this community, and to say that "Nobody here has a clue" is a bit much, IMO.
There is much more to learn about all marine animals, not just Zoanthids, but it is a fact that toxins exist in many, probably most hobbyists tanks. Chances are, that we have yet to identify a good number of them, or their sources. Wearing gloves is never a bad idea if you're sticking your hand in your tank. It not only protects you from your tank, it protects your tank from anything you might have on your hand/arm.

[NanoCube-boy]

Yup... I agree. People usually have lotion applied on their hands and harm corals. Sometime people hands are not always clean to coral as it is clean to themselves. So wear gloves, protect them as you protect yourself... Slap some rubber on... hehe

[jessiesgrrl]

From www.WetWebMedia.com, about halfway down this page it starts http://www.wetwebmedia.com/zoanthid1.htm :

Zoanthids?
Hi guys,
I have a quick identification question. We went and bought some polyps this weekend that look like giant button polyp zoanthids that are a brown and white marble sort of color. They are very large and we were told at the LFS that we bought them at that they are called cinnamon polyps.
<I know them very well. I poisoned myself three times in ten years as a coral farmer with them. They are potentially fatally toxic, but know that many corals are that you don't know about. Besides not eating your corals <smile>, you often hear that one should wear gloves in the aquarium to protect your corals from contamination on your hands and to protect your of course from these stinging animals. This is a good reason. Just do not handle them with cuts on your hands or propagate them without wearing gloves <G>. The worst that you are likely to encounter is a metallic taste in the mouth if you work in the tank without gloves. The creature is also known as the Giant Sun Polyp, Protopalythoa grandis. A beautiful creature that also occurs marbled with pink and green! as well as with radiating red and white stripes.>
We have not been able to find anything on Wet Web that looks like them or on the rest of the internet, probably because we have the wrong name for them. If you could please maybe give me an idea of what these giant polyps are.
<yep...Giant Sun Polyps <G>. Always use the name (Proto)palythoa grandis or P. toxica (Pacific)>
Thanks for any info. you can give. Marci = )
<best regards... and hear is a fascinating article on the toxin in such Zoantharians:

The Fantastic Story of the Modern Discovery of Palytoxin
This article was written by Professor Bob Williams of Colorado State University, for his publication: The Nerd Street Journal.
Palytoxin was discovered by Professor Paul J. Scheuer at the University of Hawaii. The story of how this toxin, and its producing organism was found is quite interesting. Prof. Scheuer has made a hobby of reading ancient Hawaiian folklore through various library collections on the islands. He came across a reference to Limu make o Hana (deadly seaweed of Hana) in his readings. This is the Hawaiian phrase for a toxic organism which Malo (Hawaiian Antiquities, 1951) described as follows: "In Muolea, in the district of Hana (Maui), grew a poisonous moss in a certain pool or pond close to the ocean. It was used to smear on the spear points to make them fatal.....The moss is said to be of a reddish color and it is still to be found. It grows nowhere else than at that one spot." According to Hawaiian legend (manuscript notes by Katherine Livermore on file at B. P. Bishop Museum, Honolulu), there lived in the Hana district a man who always seemed to be busy planting and harvesting. Whenever the people in the neighborhood went fishing, upon their return, one of the group was missing. This went on for some time without the people having any explanation about the disappearances. At last the fishermen became suspicious of the man who tended his taro patch. They grabbed him, tore off his clothes and discovered on his back the mouth of a shark. They killed and burned him and threw the ashes into the sea. At the spot where this happened, so goes the legend, the limu (moss) became toxic. The tidepool containing the poisonous limu subsequently became kapu (taboo) to the Hawaiians. They would cover the limu with stones and were very secretive about its location. They firmly believed that disaster would strike if anyone were to attempt to gather the toxic limu (later named Palythoa).
Prof. Scheuer collaborated with Professors A.H. Banner and P. Helfrich of the Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology, and through a very elaborate chain of local Hawaiian informers and several cases of beer to loosen (frightened) lips, the location of the fabled tidepool was reluctantly disclosed. The tidepool was located at the end of a lava flow at Muolea (Kanewai), south of Hana, Maui. Divers collected a small sample of the toxic limu on December 31st, 1961. During the collection, local residents reminded the collection team of the kapu and the high probability of impending misfortune. Coincidentally, that same afternoon, a fire of unknown origin destroyed the main building of the Hawaii Marine Laboratory at Coconut Island, Oahu (the Institution of Drs Banner and Helfrich). Scuba divers have subsequently combed the surrounding ocean front near the tidal pool and did not find the Palythoa growing anywhere else except in the original location pointed out by local residents. The tide pool turned out to be just six feet long, two feet wide, and 20 inches deep at low tide. The crude ethanol extracts of the Palythoa toxica proved to be so toxic that an accurate LD50 was difficult to determine. More recently, the toxicity has been determined to be 50-100ng/kg i.p. in mice. The compound is an intense vasoconstrictor; in dogs, it causes death within 5 min at .06ug/kg. By extrapolation, a toxic dose in a human (obviously not determined) would be about 4 micrograms!!!. It is the most toxic organic substance known.
Following the isolation of the crude toxin by Scheuer (reported in Science (1971) 172, p.495), it was nearly 11 years before the correct structure was unraveled. two research groups, one at the University of Hawaii (led by Prof. Richard Moore, a student of Scheuer's) and one at Nagoya University (led by Prof. Hirata) put together the correct chemical structure in late 1981. Following that, Prof. Yo****o Kishi at Harvard University decided to try the complete chemical synthesis of the Palytoxin molecule. This monumental task was completed in 1989.
The Palytoxin molecule has the longest contiguous chain of carbon atoms known to exist in a natural product(115).The molecule has the formula C129H223N3O54 and contains 64 stereogenic centers. Adding this with the double bonds that can exhibit cis/trans isomerism means that Palytoxin can have more than one sextillion(1021) stereoisomers! This staggering molecular complexity should indicate the difficult nature of designing a stereocontrolled synthetic strategy that will produce just the one correct (natural) stereocenter out of >1021 possible stereoisomers (Kishi did).
The Palythoa toxica species has more recently been found near Tahiti, but produces a slightly different compound. The Tahitian organism is not widely dispersed in the coral reefs off Tahiti, but does not appear to be as localized as it is on Maui (a single tidal pool).

[jessiesgrrl]

Here is a link to the University of Hawaii's research findings:

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~bemorton/Neuroscience/Neurochemistry/Palytoxin.html

When I was in the Air Force, and we taught airmen when/how to put their masks on when exposure was suspected- somebody was supposed to yell GAS GAS GAS and they were then all supposed to follow precautions immediately (gear). IMO, this is the same. You have people letting you know you may be dealing with a neurotoxin in your tank given a specific species (GAS GAS GAS!), so wear gloves... (mask up). I wouldn't have advised airmen to trying to decide for themselves when to take the mask off- and in the same vein I won't advise trying to decide which zoas/palys to wear gloves with... ie, is this the strain of zoanthid I have to wear them with?

As long as you wear gloves when propagating or when you have cuts, you should be fine. In the right amount, yes this is a neurotoxin and can be fatal to humans. However, I have never heard of any human being so odd as to eat one and get a fatal vegetative dose of it. Usually, it is just a small exposure into a cut or wiping a rag, etc across mucous membranes which allows for quick and targeted uptake. I feel sorry for the poor pooch- it is in my mind completely possible. His vegetative dose would likely be different from ours because of the size of his body (much smaller than ours), and his oral fixation (Licking repeatedly/eating coral flesh/drinking contaminated water)... :(


Laurie

[jessiesgrrl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7713045#post7713045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jessiesgrrl
As far as credible, I would suggest checking out the info Bob Fenner has on zoanthid care and toxicity on Wet Web Media. That should get rid of the urban legend quality...

Neurotoxins are serious stuff and occur naturally many places in nature, as well as your home. For example, botulinum toxin (botulism) is an anerobic bacterium that can occur quite naturally inyour kitchen cabinet that has any can containing a protein. The can bulges from the bacterial growth, the bacteria produce the toxin as a waste product of consuming the protein and there you go. As for the power of it, well, all those women in California, etc getting rid of wrinkles with Botox are using a neurotoxin directly injected to paralyze facial muscles. FYI, your local emergency department only carries the most common antivenoms. They would not have near the space to carry them all, or the money to keep them on hand as they expire.

I would be careful with all of them as a precaution (Especially Palythoa) - and double check me with Mr. Fenner.

Have a great day
Laurie

LOL For the record, my point was that you were wondering aloud about the potency of the palytoxin of the zoas/palythoa/grandis which is a neurotoxin. Botulinum toxin is a neurotoxin as well. My point with the example of Botulinum toxin was to give you a more well known frame of reference. Perhaps next time I will try to make myself clearer...

And I would NOT want my pets drinking water with Botulinum toxin in it- would you?

:D
Laurie

[homesidereef]

I just read a great article in CORAL magazine volume 3, number 5
"wallflowers of reef aquarium hobby" by daniel knop.
decribes toxcity of some zoas

[Ryanqk]

hmm i need to get ahold of that issue, im gonna subscribe i love that mag too bads its only 6 issues a year

[homesidereef]

I agree! 6 months is far too little

[NanoCube-boy]

Where can i get one of these magazines?

[chocolateblnt]

Very Interesting Thread.