Any models to feed constantly?

[piercho]

I considered how to achieve your suggestion, and came up with the idea of making a suspension of prepared food in limewater, assuming that the 12.4 ph of the limewater would act as a guard against rapid decomposition until the food was delivered to the sytem. A agitator (to keep the food in suspension) and frequent dosing system would be required.

For instance, you could deliver a few cubes of frozen artemia naupli (or a hatched batch) into a CaOH reactor, and the existing agitation and dosing system of the reactor would deliver a small amount frequently to the tank.

Does this idea sound reasonable? Do the animals care if their food has been pickled? Or are you considering a non-mechanical, natural way of doing this?

[rshimek]

Hi Howard,

I don't think that the animals would eat calcium hydroxide saturated food.

I haven't really figured out how to go about feeding "continuously" yet. Lots of ideas, but nothing that would seem like it would work well. :D

I think the final solution will have to include a mechanical way to do this. I don't think we can culture anything in sufficient numbers to do it that way.

:D

[mogurnda]

Maybe this is impractical, but I thought I'd throw it out there. My shrimp (cleaners and peppermint) have been molting/spawning every 2 weeks for a couple of years. Could one put a few dozen in a reverse photoperiod refugium, and have a relatively constant supply of larvae wafting through the main tank? Or maybe use a larger number of smaller species to reduce the bioload and make it less sporadic.
I was wondering though, how many animals really eat constantly. In the insect world, where I do my research, even the grazers eat in bouts.

[derick]

Each automatic feeder feeds 4 times per day. If you have 3 of them this gives you 12 feedings per day.

I can't claim credit for this idea.

I first saw this implemented by Dayne about six years ago.
I asked him how he managed to keep Anthius alive since they require continuous feedings. He showed me his sump which seemed to always have some food in it from the three automatic feeders that he had over the sump.

His fish were what I call Reef-Fat.

derick

[rshimek]

Hi,

Thanks for the information.

:D

[jacmyoung]

I assume those feeders fed dry food only? I was thinking if there is a way to auto-dispense frozen food the problem can be easily resolved. Ice maker is a common household item, automation is not difficult, it's a matter of some manufacture willing to come up with a suitable prototype and there is a market that will justify the development and manufacturing costs.

[rshimek]

Hi,

Yes. All we need is somebody to do it.

:D

[jshowe@liberty.edu]

So I've been reading up on the different ideas and approaches to this idea. What I think I'm hearing is that dosing with something like DTs(or other cultured foods) would be really benefical. The problem comes in with keeping it alive while it waits to be dosed. So if I could make a setup where the culture kept cold and alive would that solve the problem that is wrestled with the most?

[rshimek]

Hi,

Well, it depends upon what you are culturing. DT's concentrate will last for a couple of days at room temperature, and in dilute form, it can go for quite a long time without cooling. The real problem is finding the appropriate food source for the system. Phytoplankton is a food for some of the organisms, but by no means all of them. What would solve the problems, is a good source of zooplankton.

[darrellh]

Hi Dr Ron,

My refugium has seemed to stock itself over the last 2-3 months with mysid shrimp (at least I think that's what they are based on on-line descriptions). There are literally hundreds if not thousands of them in my refugium and many have found their way into the main tank where they seem to be pretty good at hiding in the live rock. I don't think there is enough of them in the main tank at this point to make much of a difference. Is there a way to cultivate enough of these guys to at least fill in the gaps between hand feedings? I feed 4-5 times a day with Omega One flakes or frozen brine or blood worms plus DTs twice a week at night.

Thanks,
Darrell

[Fredfish]

Would a semi continuous rotifer culture provide the right kind of nutrition.

Reed mariculture has developed a high density continuous rotifer culture system that could provide the right quantity of food.

It should be possible to automate the straining, rinse and delivery of live rotifers directly to a tank using plcs. All the project needs is a creative engineer.

Fred.

[rshimek]

Originally posted by darrellh

Hi Darrell,

Is there a way to cultivate enough of these guys to at least fill in the gaps between hand feedings?

The only way I would suggest would involve a lot more volume in the mysid culture than in the main tank. This is the gist of our problem, the natural reef has cubic miles of water culturing the zooplankton that wash continously over the reef. We have to figure out a way to mimic this production without the volume.

:D

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Fredfish

Hi Fred,

It should be possible to automate the straining, rinse and delivery of live rotifers directly to a tank using plcs.

Well, this would be a good start. :D

All the project needs is a creative engineer.

Ah... yes.... :mixed:

[revjlw]

Let's say I set up a small dosing drip system that is set to drip empty every 12 hours. I would put a VERY SMALL air source into it to produce MINIMAL water movement, to keep it stirred up, which is set on a timer to stop shortly before it runs dry and to start sometime after I fill it. I fill it each morning with the set amount of water from the tank. Into it I add the following: some DT's or Marine Snow (2 lil fishes) or similar product, some freshly hatched brine shrimp, and a cube of frozen food melted with tank water. Each night I fill it with the same amount of tank water so that it rinses all the little buddies (bodies?) out.

In theory, I would think this would work. In practice? who knows. I'd need to make some sort of calculation - ugh! - of how much of the various food types to add to properly feed my bioload.

Comments?

[mobert]

revjlw -- I have a set-up similiar to what you suggest. I have a 2 1/2 gallon container sitting on top of my refugium. The container is fed at a fast drip from the tank above by a 1/4" tubing that is stuck in a hole drilled in the return pipe for the tank. (This way when power is out it doesn't drain the tank and it starts right up when the pump goes back on). The container has a small air pump to stir things up. There is an overflow from this container into the refugium. Once a day I put in strained newly hatched brine (one teaspoon of eggs worth) and twice a day I add about 15 drops of Instant Algae from Reed Maniculture to feed the brine. I don't think frozen food would work well as some of it would probably rot.

The 1/4" feed line also "y" into the refugium so that the drip can be controlled and the water is fresh.

Mona

[H20ENG]

I worked at a public aquarium where we used revjlw's suggestion. Basically it was several Kent drip dosers. Later, larger acrylic tanks with drip valves were used. They were filled every morning with nauplii, and a light flow of air kept them in suspension. Not totally automated, but fairly maintenance free.
The drip valves tend to clog up once in awhile, un- automating the process.
I am a fan of the freer flowing method, like mobert suggested. a small tank with an overflow directed to the main tank. The small tank is constantly fed a dribble of water, and thus overflows the same amount (now carrying some food).
I dont know of the difference in feed density vs. time between the 2 types, but if the little drip valve clogs, then the other one wins hands down.
It'd be fun to automate a whole culture system with aout valves, timers, etc.:D
$0.02
Chris

[simonh]

I've been experimenting with various methods over the last 6 months. First, I got 2 of the Eheim auto-feeders that I use to deliver dried foods for the fish upto 4 times per day on each doser. Amazingly, the fish seem to know a couple of minutes before the feeder drops and all gather at the feeding ring. My original thoughts were that auto-feeders would stop the un-natural response of fish rushing to the front glass when you manually feed.

I have also played with a couple of methods of feeding rotifers / baby brine shrimp. First method was to semi-batch culture rotifers, harvest a quantity of rotifers (and brine shrimp) each day, rinse them to remove the culture water, metabolic byproducts, nutrients/metals, then resuspend them in a small quantity of phytoplankton to keep them fed. I then dosed these via peristaltic pump throughout the day (an alternative would be to put the container in the sump and use a T-off the main pump to drip into the container and overflow). Now, this method encourages much more natural behaviour of planktivores like my chromis (and my anthias seem to pick at the larger rotifers) which are constantly eating them throughout the day. Much less time for fighting with each other ;)

Just recently, I tried an alternative continuous culture that I thought should be less hassle. I used a 3litre 4" acrylic tower with mixing rod sat in the sump containing the rotifers, this was fed live phytoplankton 24/7 using a peristaltic pump which displaced some water/rotifers into the sump. After a couple of weeks I stopped this and went back to my previous method. I found that the rotifer count in the continuous doser was very low compared to my batch cultures (I think low oxygen levels of 2.4mg/l in the culture could have been part of this problem and an airpump maybe better than a stirring rod). The culture smelt very bad and I also noticed some cyano in the tank maybe due to metabolic byproducts/nutrients in the culture water been added to the tank).

I personally prefer the first method as it allows me some control and the ability to get rid of any nutrients in the culture water. I figure that if I feed X grams of phytoplankton to the rotifers then only so much of this will go into the rotifer biomass and the rest will be excreted as waste into the culture water. I do find that by lighting rotifers cultures and using live phytoplankton you can get the remaining phyto to reuse some of the waste for regrowth but it seem a difficult balance to acheive full utilization of nutrients IME.

I persoanlly would love to get hold of some of the free swimming calanoid? copepods to culture in addition/instead of rotifers. Reed Mariculture are now offering some copepod start cultures (a freeswimming harpcicoid?) although they are fairly expensive.

[SmartWrasse]

I could live with loading something once a day with food, but what type of food?
Regarding a simple dosing mechanism with an air pump there is a $20 gadget at www.drsfostersmith.com that I could not link under fish, food and feeders, feeders, automatic, profeeder.

This gadget is supposed to work with frozen food. Need some low nutrition food that breaks into small particles (maybe blender mush). What about frozen brine shrimp?
I suppose it adds water over the food that is then pushed out the bottom of an air tight tube. Should be a DIY I guess.

[rshimek]

Originally posted by simonh

Hi Simon,

Well, it sounds like you are well on your way to solving some of the problems.

I persoanlly would love to get hold of some of the free swimming calanoid? copepods to culture in addition/instead of rotifers.

Calanoids would be the holy grail of this, but unfortunately most of them have life cycles that take 2 or more years to complete. They are actually quite long lived animals, and whilst very fecund, it would be difficult to get some to reproductive age.

:D

[rshimek]

Originally posted by SmartWrasse

Hi,

I could live with loading something once a day with food, but what type of food?

That's the rub...

What about frozen brine shrimp?

These might be the way to go, but I am concerned about the drop in food palatability through the day as they decompose in the feeder. Late in the day, one might be adding only cyanobacteria food... Not a very desireable option.

:D

[revjlw]

Could you look at my post and comment on feasibility? Maybe make a recommendation? Thanks - Jeanne

[rshimek]

Originally posted by revjlw

Hi,

Comments?

Well, it might work, pretty well, but you would have to pick and choose your foods carefully. I think you might, in the long run, want a couple of set ups, for example, I think that phytoplankton such as DT's would need to be fed at a greater rate than some of the animal products. Additionally, some products, such as Marine Snow, are, at best, doubtful as food for anything.

See here (http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/data/foods.asp) for some information on the nutritional quality of some foods.

:D

[darrellh]

Each night I fill it with the same amount of tank water so that it rinses all the little buddies (bodies?) out.

hi revjlw,

Are you using auto top-off for evaporation with this feeding method? It seems like removing large volumes of saltwater from the main tank and allowing it to return slowly would play havoc with the freshwater auto top-off.

Thanks,
Darrell

[revjlw]

Dr. Ron - thanks for your input. I wondered about MarineSnow.... The reason for add the DT or MarineSnow was to feed the baby Brine shrimp so that they don't croak while waiting to be released and hunted. I "dose" my tank with CoralHeaven for feeding the corals and wasn't really adding the DTs for that purpose.

darrellh - this is in the planning stage and not actually in use. But, no, I have no auto anything on my little 46 gal bowfront.

Everybody - I emailed Drs. Foster & Smith about the Pro Feeder described by SmartWrasse asking how it worked. Here's info from Greg:
"The Pro Feeder is designed to allow the hobbyist to provide a natural feeding pattern in the system. The feeder will use frozen foods to slowly dispense food over the coarse of several hours.
The unit requires only an air pump to do the job.
Simply place frozen food into the food basket, connect an air pump to the air inlet at the bottom of the unit. Close the needle valve, and then open it a little at a time until the water level is just under the food basket. The ideal setting will cause the water to just splash the food."

It can be seen at this link:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=4436 I do hope that I am not breaking any rules by including the link here....
I thought it looked promising for the gradual feeding of frozen food.

[rshimek]

Hi,

It might work just fine. It will be interesting to see.... :D

I may have to get one and see how it goes.

Thanks for the information. :D

[barry769]

I was just wondering if anyone has actually tried this Pro Feeder and what were the results if you have?

[rshimek]

Good Question!! [thanks]

I would also welcome such an answer.

[delpat]

Here's a german apparatus for feeding frozen food up to twenty times for max a week. http://www.korallenriff.de/frostfutterautomat.html for about 250$ ! don't know anything about it, i just found the link. Seems interesting though.

[rshimek]

[thanks] for the information!!

[SmartWrasse]

I am experimenting with a Pro-Feeder. The thing seems difficult to adjust. You have to get the air pump to splash water onto frozen food (ie brine shrimp) that is dropped into a bulkhead strainer. It also seems that some of the food will be stuck and not get splashed out. I have now attached the air pump to a timer so when the air pump is turned off for a fewminutes the water level goes above the food. The pump turns on again and the food is then bubbled out. Seemed to work the first time. I also had to attach the air pump to the bottom of the unit by an airline union since mine appeared to be improperly made.

[rshimek]

Hi,

Thanks for the information. It will be interesting to see if you can get it to function consistently. The problem with the "improper" construction is troubling. :(

:mixed:

[barry769]

Its been a long time since i've been to reef central so i figured it is time to bring up an old post....
Did you ever get the feeder to work correctly, and did it help?

-Scott

[SmartWrasse]

It has a bulkhead strainer inside that food is placed in and an airpump puts air inside the tube to keep the frozen food from being submerged. The air input splashes water up on the food.

Here is the way I use this little thing. I put some frozen brine in (one cube) before 8 am when I leave for work. Very little comes out until my timer turns the pump off for 1 min. at 9:30 am which is just after sunrise on my reef. A big bolus of brineshrimp is served when the airpump comes back on. The timer is triggered again at 10:30 and a much small bolus of food is delivered.

This is not continuous feeding, but it allows me to give the morning feeding at a more convenient time for my schedule.

[pisces 12]

Dr. Ron Or somebody I'm setting a 265gal to replace the one that sprang a leak Mike at INLand Aquatics said to put the live sand down frist and then the southdown on top the guy in the pet shop where I got the sand said to put the live sand down after the southdown. ???

[rshimek]

Hi,

Live sand on top.

:D

[NTidd]

Updates??

[salty joe]

There is a thread on reef discussion titled Does any1 else use constant feeders