PDA

View Full Version : Is my live rock dead?


peerboerner
01/17/2003, 05:56 PM
I currently have a 50 gal FOWLR tank with approx. 50lbs of Live Rock sitting on a 3 inch bed of crushed coral. I was thinking of incorporating this rock into my new 120 gal soon to be constructed reef tank along with another 100lbs or so of live rock which I would purchase in the near future. The question I have that, for reasons beyond my comprehension, my phosphate level is over 1.0ppm in my 50gal tank and no matter what I do, I can't seem to bring the level down. The reason I'm mentioning this is that my rock constantly has cyanobacteria growing on it and I'm afraid that I may be starting off "on the wrong foot" by introducing that rock into a newly created reef tank. I'm guessing that the phosphates may have leached into the live rock from a bad batch of water I used early on in the creation of the tank and now periodically leeches back out into the water.

My question, therefore, is should I toss this live rock into the garbage and start from scratch, or should I try to salvage it? It's really nice fugi rock, but I'd hate to throw out good money after bad.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

gregt
01/17/2003, 06:02 PM
If it were me, I'd probably trash the rock, but it's expensive, so I can understand why you want to save it.

You could try the vinegar scrub treatment, but that's just going to treat the surface problem. Once rock is saturated, there really isn't much you can do that wouldn't be a bandaid....

mrivers
01/17/2003, 08:03 PM
Is there anything other than LR in the tank now? If not, I'ld remove the rock, rinsing them with tank water to get rid of the cyano and any loose detritus, then remove the all of the rest of the water and gravel and any thing else.

Then set it back up with new water (test Phosphates for reference later).

Worst case senerio, you've burnt $20 in salt and you have to toss your LR.

Best case, you've got good rock and good water to put into your 120g.

Now, if you have animals in there, well... I dunno, I've done a couple 100% water changes on a small reef system with no bad effects (did kill off a bunch of hair algae thou)

peerboerner
01/18/2003, 11:02 AM
I think I'm going to "86" the rock. I think it isn't worth taking the chance in my new tank.

Thanks again for responding to my post with your advice:)

bgdiving
01/18/2003, 08:29 PM
peerboerner
If your just going to pitch it, I'll trade you a couple of frags for the live rock as long as it haswn't been treated with any copper. does it still have coraline on it?

robthorn
01/18/2003, 09:19 PM
HEY WAIT I will take that rock before you throw it away. I can use some live rock . please don't trash it

peerboerner
01/19/2003, 09:26 AM
Just kidding...

The rock has NOT been treated with anything ever except for some red-slime remover. It has been in my FOWLR tank with some minimal lighting a tang and friends.

Perhaps we can work something out at the next meeting. I've recently joined the Tampabay Reef club and am planning on showing up where ever we are on Feb. 8.

See you there.

robthorn
01/19/2003, 12:04 PM
actually if you want to keep the rock yourself scrub it in white vinegar. This will help I did the same thing with some of my rock. Call john at fish and other ichthy stuff to find out exactly what to do it's been a while so I don't remember every detail. 813 891 4291. If you haven't been to his store check it out you will love it

bgdiving
01/19/2003, 01:45 PM
peerboerner
If you decide not to bother to cleen it up I could arrange to trade with you at the next meeting, or you could bring the live rock and get a couple of frags from me when your new tank is ready. I've been to every club meeting since the very beginning and expect to make most of the future meetings so it would be no problem to do a 2 phase trade if that works better for you. Another option, if you feel like driving to Nokomis, you could do a road trip and bring it down here and look though the bunch of frags I have available.

lllosingit
01/19/2003, 02:31 PM
I wouldn't throw the rock out or trade it off, you still need to find the cause of the high phosphates?
Did you use RO/DI water?
The reason I say to keep it is, you will most likely have at least some cyano in the new tank even without adding the old rock and your still going to have the phosphate problem unless you can balme it on the old rock wich I doubt is the case.

peerboerner
01/19/2003, 06:09 PM
Funny you should mention John's store. I was there today and he recommended the white vinegar (sp?) treatment as well. I may "give that a whirl" since live rock is somewhat expensive and I'll need quite a bit for my new tank.

As far as the phosphate drama goes, it's actually coupled with an outrageous nitrate problem to boot. I've manage to get my nitrates down from over 160ppm to 40ppm with phosphates in excess of 1.0 ppm. I believe that the root of my problems is my el-cheapo sealife systems skimmer or my inability to use it properly. I also believe phosphates have embedded themselves into the liverock / live sand bed due to my attempt to filter my own tap water when I first setup the tank 3 years ago. After my first month using tap water, I drained the tank and replaced all of the salt water with ro/di water purchased from my lfs along with the fish (they all died with the tap water). However, I'm fairly sure, despite some rather substantial water changes (typically 30% but often over 50%), that the phosphates came from the tap water during the first month the tank was in existance.

Perhaps at the Febuary meeting I could get some pointers or figure something out and go from there.

Once again, thanks for the advice from all of you. This has been great!

Agu
01/23/2003, 04:01 PM
Why is everyone assuming the rock is the problem ? I'd get rid of that three inches of crushed coral !!!! According to everything I've read it's not hospitable to critters for a live sandbed and it fills up with crud.

Get a couple of tubs to hold your rock and critters, clean out all the substrate, and put the tank back together. While you're at it incorporate a 20 to 30 percent waterchange. I suspect removing the substrate, rinsing the rock (in plain old saltwater) while your moving it, and a couple of water changes will solve your phosphate problem.

jmo,

Agu

marineaquariums
01/23/2003, 07:26 PM
Ill Take the rock off you hand if you dont want it,, or maybe trade
thanks
Bill
St pete

Agu
01/23/2003, 08:48 PM
LOL

Peer, offer a couple of buckets of three year old crushed coral substrate. I suspect you won't have many takers :rolleyes: .

Agu

Agu
01/24/2003, 10:40 PM
Peer,

Just had another thought. If you don't want to tear down the tank to remove the crushed coral get a gravel cleaning siphon vac and start vacuuming the substrate to remove crud from your system. Since you're upgrading to a larger tank this will be a temporary pita, but will in the meantime remove a lot of wastes. In the meantime start reading up on deep sandbeds (if you choose to go this route) and be prepared for your new tank.

jmo,
Agu

rreed
01/27/2003, 08:04 PM
I agree with the last post, don't pitch or trade rock! Its not the problem. You have the cynao 1 because of the high phosphates, 2 high count of organics which is more than likely in the crushed coral substrate. Rock is not the problem! Ray...

peerboerner
01/29/2003, 11:29 AM
Everyone,

Thanks for your advice on my live rock. I am going to tear down the tank, discard the crushed coral, and use the rock in my new 120 reef tank. I'm planning on buying a boatload of live rock (from tampabay saltwater, I might add) and I'll integrate my cyanobacteria laden existing live (possibly dead) rock as base rock in the new tank. I place my new rock along side and on top of it. Perhaps the massive amount of new saltwater from the new tank setup will extract and dilute the phosphase problem... or not. In either case, I'll let you know.

Thanks again for all of your insight and comments. I've been watching them very carefully.

PS: Anyone want any free, cyanobacteria laden crushed coral? :D

Peer

robthorn
01/29/2003, 06:19 PM
doesn't tampa bay saltwater rock come from the gulf? isn't the gulf full of phosphates? I may be wrong but you may want better rock just in case. johns prices at fish and other ichthy stuff goes down with bulk not sure of the prices or break points but his rock is at least from clean water. Anyway just trying to help good luck with the new tank .

robthorn
01/29/2003, 06:24 PM
oh yeah need a custom built chiller for your new tank? I can build it on your site to fit your needs. the system I build would cut power consumption in half. Could possibly save you alot more than that on your a/c consumption if your planning on installing a chiller inside your home.
E-mail me at robthorn1@hotmail.com if your interested .

peerboerner
01/30/2003, 11:16 AM
robthorn -

Funny you should mention the Gulf and phosphates. As it turns out, I've heard and read so many good things about tampabay saltwater rock that I think it must be alright, though, as usual, the proof is in the pudding. I've visited their store and I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I tested their water for phosphate level. However, your point about John's place is also interesting. I've met him once, liked his store very much, and really need to chat with him about his rock, bulk pricing and so forth. To your point about phosphates and the gulf: I THINK the tampabay saltwater rock comes from a site 9 or so miles off-shore and should not be affected by the polutants you'd experience closer inland... (Like I said, I think ). I'll have to see.

As for the chiller: Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. My wife has already given me the "evil eye" regarding lots of equipment and plumbing! but it may be necessary.

Peer

liverocks.com
02/09/2003, 07:58 PM
The liverock that is placed in the gulf by Tampa Bay S.W. & liverocks.com... Either corporation, Both of these liverock companys use a 0% phosphate base rock, that is a pure calcium carbonate base. (Fiji LR. is 37.5% phosphate)according to the studies performed by HCC college, in St. Petersburg. Both of these co. get there rock from a vein of (Bryozoan facies) rock product that is only known to be found in Florida & the Bahamas. This special vein of rock Starts in Miami,Homestead area and runs under the Atlantic and up on to the Bahama islands. Here is a link to the: "HCC Interdisciplenary Liverock Project" This report was written and performed for all of the aquacultured liverock company's based here in Florida. There was a federal grant given to HCC. college to perform this study for all concerned in aquaculture liverock industry. I hope that this report will educate and enlighten all who read it. Very interesting information.....Here is the link: http://www.nbizz.com/tritonmarine/upload/falls.pdf[url=http://www.nbizz.com/tritonmarine/upload/falls.pdf[/URL]

luminary
02/09/2003, 10:04 PM
All the rock in my 50 is gulf aquacultured rock and I don't have a phosphate problem.

I gotta go with Agu....toss the cc

peerboerner
02/10/2003, 09:44 AM
Well,

I followed Agu's advice and took my live rock out of my FOWLR tank, ditched the crushed coral, cleaned the Cyanobacteria from the rock, and placed the cleaned live rock into a plastic barrel with brand-new, freshly mixed seawater (Instant Ocean + RO/DI water from the LFS). I placed a heater and rio 2500 into the barrel, raised the temperature to 80 degrees and let the system run in my garage for 8 days. I only added water to replace the evaporation. I took my first phosphate reading today... it was over 1.0 ppm - off the charts! S*$$&@&%@#$($*T!

I guess I could do a water change and keep plugging away, but I'm wondering if it's worth it? Incidentally, the barrel I'm using was previously used to store Hot Peppers in a brine solution imported from Greece. I rinsed the barrel with city water and dried it out reasonably well, but I can't believe the city water residue or the residue from the peppers would have affected (effected?) my phosphate level that much. But who knows?

On a separate note: It was great meeting all of you yesterday at Mote. I'm glad I joined the club. Look forward to seeing you all again at the next meeting!

Peer

liverocks.com
02/10/2003, 03:53 PM
In regards to phosphates in Gulf liverock. I am a aquaculture liverock farmer/harvester, that brings in 1,000 to 2,500 lbs of liverock in one harvest. I bring the rock into our warehouse and place it in fresh gulf sea water. Each tank holds approximately 800 gals. When we do a phosphate test on the fresh gulf water before the rock is added, we read, 0.10 mg./L After we add the the rock to our holding tanks,(approximately 1-1/2 lbs. per gal.) I take another phosphate test, 48 hrs. later -120 hrs. later & 240 hrs. later. My findings on the phosphate tests are still 0.10 mg./L hope this little bit of info. is of interest or helps my fellow reefers.
Sincerely: "Ron of Triton"

Link to liverock research:"HCCInterdisciplinary Liverock Project" [url=http://www.nbizz.com/tritonmarine/upload/falls.pdf]

ichthyman
02/10/2003, 07:51 PM
Peer,

Did you test the RO/DI water for phosphate before starting this procedure? Just curious, as I have tested many of my local competitors' water and they are far from providing a pure product.

John Reiter

peerboerner
02/10/2003, 09:12 PM
John:

I didn't think to test the RO/DI water from my LFS BEFORE adding it to the barrel I'm using, however, I just tested some water from the same LFS that I'm using to top-off the barrel. The top-off water has zero measurable phosphates. I think I can safely assume that the initial water was also zero phosphate (I've tested it periodically before), but in the interest of science, I really should have tested it first. Thanks for your input!

Ron:

I read the article you suggested and found it very helpful along with the conversation we had today on the phone. Thanks! I do think, however, that I managed to get phosphate "bound" into my live rock and that perhaps the pH has shifted sufficiently to cause the phosphate to leach back out. If the phosphate is not coming from the Rock, I don't know where else it could be from. There's nothing else in the barrel except seawater.

Thanks again for the input from you both.

liverocks.com
02/11/2003, 02:55 PM
I agree with "Ichthyman" I too have seen LFS that do not monitor there RO/DI with consistancy. Also I have had many a SW hobbiest come in and complain that everything in there tank is dying and all there tests are with-in the perimeters of natural sea water??? I ask them to bring a sample in to test and I find over & over again that they are relying only on a specific gravity meter. When I test the salinity that there SG=(specific gravity) meter says is perfect, I find on our electronic "S.C.T-meter"= (salinity,conductivity,temperature) that there water is actually testing @1.012 SG. or 17% on our SCT. "Thats not much more than brackish river water. And we all know it should be reading @ 1.023 to 1.026 (SG.) or 28% to 32% (SCT.) I cannot to this day understand why any-one will invest enormous amounts of time, energy, and money in there SW. aquarium, and then rely on a $6.00 piece of junk (SGM) to monitor there investment of love, sweat and $$$. If you have to go with a low dollar salinity tester, use at least (2) instuments. I would use (2) hydrometers myself if I could not afford the state of the art equipment. If I did not get two close readings then I would be off and looking for a third and fourth opinion/reading. "Ron of Triton" "You get what you pay for,or your going to pay for what you got!" oww $$$

liverocks.com
02/11/2003, 03:41 PM
I believe everyone that makes or buys water (RO/DI) should test or ask the clerk at LFS to test it in front of you with a (TDS) meter to insure you that there (RO/DI) water is with-in safe TDS parimeters. "NOTE-(TDS=total dissolved solids) if the TDS is above 12-13 ppm then there filter system is on the blink.

""Talk is cheap, it never hurts to ask". ( If they cop an attitude over questioning there products then I would be leary of purchasing there products)

SPC
02/11/2003, 06:30 PM
Ron,
I sent you an email about a month ago asking if your company was ever open to walk ins, but I did not receive a reply.
Steve