A quick simple question

[sammystingray]

Are phosphorous, or more commonly in our tanks, phosphates in their natural state surface active agents? I say no without kalk or something else to help the bond. It's a little dispute from another site. Thanks in advance for any input, and of course I tried my own research first.

[rshimek]

Gad... You got me :D

I simply have no idea.

Sorry,

[Ironreef]

I'm not sure but I belive he's asking if kalk. will rid phosphate? But I belive only skimming and alga are the most effective ways of riding phosphate as well as w/c. Depending on the water source. Kalk.aids the skimmer when removing phosphate. I belive this is the question? I just understand typing a question when drinking a beer??Or I maybe completly wrong? One or the other.

[sammystingray]

Are phosphates as they naturally occur attracted to the surface area between water and air? Ironreef, you were in on the discussion, and what I tried to say is that skimmers reduce the addition of phosphates by waste removal, but I didn't think that phosphates themselves were surfactants at normal seawater pH. I've heard that you need a pH of 10 or above to skim nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, and phosphates without an aid such as kalk.

[Ironreef]

If you had a ph of 10 in your tank it would crash. Making that theroy not true. Kalk has a ph of 12c but when driped slowely it shouldn't change much.= not ten in the tank. Skimming and alga are the only removers that are good for reefs that I've aware of. They have sponges but they can leech metals into the tank. There maybe other things but plain simple skimming or an algae tank is best IME. Something as simple as a skimmer will remove nitrtes ect by removing dissolved organic before they breck down into waste( ammo) ect. Its in any basic beginner reef book like Modern Coral Reef1, TRA1 , Tullocks ect.. If you have a ph a 10 you would have a tank thus a skimmer wouldn't work

[sammystingray]

What don't you get. I have about a twelve downed myself. I am saying that you cannot skim phosphates without a pH of 10, therefore you cannot skim phosphates in a functional tank. I fully realize that a pH of 10 is not a good thing, and that's my point!!!!!!! This is a simple question that Dr Ron admitted to not knowing and needs a working knowledge of chemistry. QUESTION........Are phosphates in their natural state in normal seawater surface active agents? Yes or no?

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Ironreef
Something as simple as a skimmer will remove nitrtes ect by removing dissolved organic before they breck down into waste( ammo) ect. Its in any basic beginner reef book like Modern Coral Reef1, TRA1 , Tullocks ect..

As a point of order, just because it is in one of these books doesn't make it so. :D

[rshimek]

Originally posted by sammystingray
QUESTION........Are phosphates in their natural state in normal seawater surface active agents? Yes or no? [/QUOTE]

Whoa... Calm down...

I suspect you can't make that kind of broad question or expect an answer. I would guess that simple mineral phosphate is unlikely to be a surfactant, but that some organic phosphates are likely to be, as they would have both polar and no-polar components.

Consequently, I think if you do a lot of research on this (and by all means, please do it :D (better you than me...:) ), you will likely find the answer is yes and no.

[sammystingray]

Thank you, I'm sorry I got a little frustrated. I guess my title was not quite correct!!