Open Brain Problems, con't

[6-line]

Hi everyone,
a couple weeks ago i posted concerns that my Green Open Brain was dying and some people recommended feeding it which i had done a couple times prior. Well i did feed it some shrimp and it was accepted twice and the 'mouth' in the area of the brain swelled nicely for a few hours, but then it was back to the normal business of being nearly skeletal. That is the way it is now, nearly all the zoox had been expelled except for some patches here and there and it doesn't swell into 'fleshly lobes' anywhere and nearly looks like a green coral skeleton. It's under about 440 watts of vho (two of the bulbs are NO Corallife, not VHO, but as stated before, it gets near VHO intensity with IceCap ballast) and the brain is in the rockwork near the bottom of my 55 gallon and so therefore it's under a little shade (wasn't prior, this is a recent move).
So, any thoughts? Also, the 'green' almost seems to be 'flaking' off so to speak--has this coral no hope, is there anything i can do? Sorry for length, but needed to give info
Thanks
Todd

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My Reef Site
Http://toddsreef.homestead.com/toddsreef.html

[Doug]

Hi Todd,

I looked through your other posts but I could not find any mention of your tanks water parameters. If it is there, I better get my glasses out, the eyes are getting old.

What is your Alk, Calcium, and pH at?

The reason that I ask this is I have been having an Alk/Cal problem in my 75g tank for the last few months and recently moved my open brains to my 90g tank where the Alk/Cal is in good shape. The brains would only expand very little, if at all, in the 75g where as in the 90g they are fully expanded almost as soon as the lights come on. As soon as I moved them from the 75g to the 90g they opened up within a few hours. All of the softies, trumpets and gonipora in my 75g do not seem to be bothered by the low Alk/Cal but the Open brains seemed to be a different story.

HTH

Doug

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Doug's Reef and Fish Page (http://38.222.244.200/dougw)

[Stark]

At what alk/calc levels did you notice your brain to be affected?

[Doug]

Hi Stark,

I started to notice the problems when the alk dropped to below 2.5meg and the Cal was between 275-350ppm.

HTH

Doug

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Doug's Reef and Fish Page (http://38.222.244.200/dougw)

[spanky]

hi 6-line, I hate to say it but the exact thing happened to me. I have to open brains both lost there color till they became almost translucent, but they still appear happy. If they release there zooxanthael algae can they get it back. I changed my lighting and hope to see a difference but I don'y know If the colors ever come back. Do you know!!!!!

[Doug]

Hi Todd,

I would say that the low alk could be related to your problem. Even though your calcium is good if the alk is too low I do not think the animals can utilize it properly.

FWIW, I also think my low alk problem was caused by using kalk. Before I started using kalk my calcium was about 450, my alk was at about 3.5meg and my ph was around 8.3, after using kalk for about 5 months both my alk and my calcium dropped way off. I think I may have been dripping the kalk too quickly and this depleted my alk which seemed to cause my calcium to drop.

Adding an alk buffer would help get your alk back up but your ph is at 8.4 already so use caution. Even though most alk buffers say that they will not increase ph I have not found one yet that doesn't. I am having a hard time getting things stablized because each time I use the buffer my ph jumps to over 8.6. I have been using C-Balance but this also causes my ph to rise. I just picked up some B-ionic last week and have been using that for the last few days and have noticed that it does not cause the ph to climb like the C-Balance did but it is too soon to tell.

HTH

Doug

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Doug's Reef and Fish Page (http://38.222.244.200/dougw)

[6-line]

Hi,
Forgot those parameters.
Believe it or not, Alk is a little low, about 2.0 meg/l. Ph is 8,4 and calcium @ 475. I recently started dosing kalk and was waiting for that to bring up my alk, but it hasn't so i may have to use buffer. Is the alk too low for open brains?
thanks

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My Reef Site
Http://toddsreef.homestead.com/toddsreef.html

[Alice]

Doug;

Just curious; what time of the day do you add your buffer? Do you have a counter lit sump with macro to keep the pH at a more constant range?

~Alice

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Reefkeeping is my life; I can't afford a hobby too!

[therman]

My open brain barely expanded at all for a few days this week, checked my calcium and it was down to 250. added a bunch and went out of town for 3 days. came back to find it filling the whole corner of the tank like it's supposed to :)

so my guess is water parameters. bring up Ca and alkalinity.

[Doug]

HI Alice,

I add the 2 parts after the lights go out. I pour the calcium part in all at once and drip the alkalinity part in with my makeup water.

I am not growing anything in my sump so there is no light over it. My ph is at 8.3 before lights and 8.6+ at the end of the light cycle.

HTH

Doug

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Doug's Reef and Fish Page (http://38.222.244.200/dougw)

[6-line]

Hi,
I did add some superbuffer to the tank today, but I worked late so i never had a chance top test, I will tomorrow morning (today) Is the bi-onic a better way to go than kalk? Usually my alk was about 3.5 but it has dropped and I've only dosed for a week or so. It's been a long time since my Brain expanded, not just the last week i started dosing kalk. I will keep an eye on my Open Brain and keep it posted, but for now it seems quite dismal.
Thanks

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My Reef Site
Http://toddsreef.homestead.com/toddsreef.html

[Doug]

Hi Todd,

Has your alkalinity been low for a period of time already?

Just to offer a glimmer of hope for you, my open brains did not expand for close to three months and then once I moved them to the new tank with the correct water parameters they are expanding better than ever.

Here are my thoughts on Kalk and Bi-onic. Both Kalk and Bi-onic have advantages and disadvantages.

When I first started using kalk it worked very well for me. My alk was at 3.5meg and my calcium was ~400. After about the first two weeks of using kalk my coraline was covering everything in sight, all of my LPS swelled as if they were going to burst and the single SPS that I had in my tank looked as if it was growing larger by the day. This seemed to continue for about 3 months. Then I noticed that my LPS were not expanding as well. I didn't test the tank until I saw the LPS problems and found out that my alk had dropped to around 1.5-2.0 meg and the calcium fell to below 300. I continued to use the kalk for about 3 more months thinking that it would bring the cal and the alk back up again but it did not. At that point I was dripping about a gallon of kalk a day and was mixing the kalk with an amount of two teaspoons per gallon. What I think happened is that my using kalk increased the overall calcium demand of tank and I was unable to replace what the tank (coraline and hard corals) was utilizing. The corals and coraline algae seemed to be using all of the kalk I was adding but it was not enough. It seemed that not only was the kalk not helping increase the alk/cal but it also seemed that it was unable to maintain it at that point. It also had a side effect of increasing my ph to the point of were I could only add about 1 teaspoon per gallon before I stopped using it.

The best advantage of kalk is that it is cheap compared to the two part supplements. I would also think that on a tank with light calcium demand or large amount of evaporation it could be used maintain the calcium levels. The disavantages are that you have to mix it, the powder is dangerous if inhaled, it needs to be dripped very slowly and if you do not loose enough water from evaperation everyday it is not possible to drip enough to keep up with the demand of a heavily loaded tank.

I have tried all of the 2 part supplements that I have heard of so far. I have used the Kent product for about a month which seemed to have little effect on the tank and did not increase my calcium at all but did bring the alk up by about 0.5 meg. I have used the C-balance product for over two months which seemed to increase both the cal and the alk but very slowly and not to the levels where I want to be. It also had a strong impact on my ph increasing it to over 8.6. I have just started using Bi-onic over the past 5 days and so far it has not increased my ph like C-balance did. I have also noticed that the ph swing is only 0.2 instead of the 0.3+ that I was seeing with C-balance between day and night. It is too soon to tell how it will work at getting my alk/cal levels where I want them but I have already noticed greater expansion in a LT plate coral that is in the tank.

The best advantages of the Bi-onic seems to be that it is easy to use, no messy powder, has a strong following from others about its ability to raise both alk/cal quickly. The main disadvantage seems to be the cost when used on larger or heavily loaded tanks because the dosage needs to be increased depending upon the calcium demand on the tank.

These are just some observations that I have made with my own tank and the limited testing that I have done.

I would think that a combination of the 2 part supplements to bring the parameters back to the proper levels and then using kalk to maintain them would work well as a long term solution but I have not gotten to that point yet.

Just make sure that any changes in water parameters are done slowly. Often when we try to correct water problems quickly we end up causing more harm than good.

Hope I didn't babble too much.

HTH

Doug

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Doug's Reef and Fish Page (http://38.222.244.200/dougw)

[6-line]

Hi Doug,
Babbling is fine, the more info the better and oftentimes tiny comments here and there are ambiguous and don't seem to get any real point across.
Anyhow, I believe my alk has been low for a couple weeks, but I'm not for sure. I buffered it some more today and i noticed it was about 2.5. Hopefully my brain might begin to recover, but patience will tell.
As far as kalk is concerned, I don't have a huge calcium demand and I have been dripping every other day or so depending on evap rate. I might switch to two-part additives, not for sure. I heard of people adding an entire gallon jug of kalk mixture to the sump without any adverse effects, is this alright or something not to be tried. I only ask because my sump projject is still under construction and I've been dripping kalk via a medical IV setup. Thought? Anyone?
Thanks

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My Reef Site
Http://toddsreef.homestead.com/toddsreef.html

[Doug]

Hi Todd,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I heard of people adding an entire gallon jug of kalk mixture to the sump without any adverse effects, is this alright or something not to be tried. I only ask because my sump projject is still under construction and I've been dripping kalk via a medical IV setup.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would not suggest that you add large amounts of kalk at one time. This could have a very bad impact on your tank and animals. Kalk has a ph of 12+ and adding a large amount at one time will skyrocket the ph of the tank. Anohter problem with dripping kalk too quickly is it can lower alkalinity. I would say stick with the medical iv drip for dosing kalk.

Since you have only been using the kalk for a short time, try to get your alk back where it belongs with the Superbuffer and then try kalk again. Just keep a close eye on your alk levels.

I meant to give you this link before:
Here is a link to Craig Bingman's site with a ton of good info on Kalk and other water chemistry isssues.

HTH

Doug

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Doug's Reef and Fish Page (http://38.222.244.200/dougw)

[Yam]

Why don't you try three or four large water changes every other day, and then maintain your alk and calcium with B-ionic. You might have an ionic imbalance, and adding different things to bring it in check is pretty tough. Plus, water changes are the easiest way to bring the alk and calcium to the correct levels. Just a suggestion regarding water chemistry, I don't have much experience with brains though.

Danny