jeez, who was at fault?

[hcs3]

link (http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/1102/62829.html)

i think ritz-carleton (almost typed RC :) ) screwed up on this, but not entirely at the dive site. they settled way too fast, IMO. granted, they let unsupervise divers go into the water, but jeez, c'mon. any moron diving should know to watch your depth as you descend. IMO i think the moron had no case, and should have ben sued himself. other reports of this dive said several other divers followed his lead, and all had DCS. if i was one of those other divers, he'd be in hot water right now and about to lose all of his settlement money.

your opinions?

[Bomber]

>Schiner's rapid ascent from a depth of more than 160 feet allowed nitrogen bubbles to gather in his spine, which led to his paralysis,<

Won't it be a hoot if this goes away in time - it can you know.

>Hotel staff instructed the guests, without appropriate supervision,<

There is no appropriate supervision, diving is not a trip to Disney World.

>He unknowingly descended to a depth of about 160 feet,<

Yeah, and I unknowingly walked into a wall.

>Schiner realized how deep he was and quickly ascended,<

Darwin

>When Schiner surfaced, the dive master failed to give him oxygen and the resort didn't have proper decompressing facilities,<

They are required as a "boat for hire" to carry O2, this they can be nailed on. As far as not having a chamber, tuff pa tooties.

Henry, what a crock of manure this is. Some throwback gets his cert, thinks he's going to some all inclusive resort where they will "take care of him". Is obviously diving way over his skill level. Has to be the first one in. Gets his crack in a crack - and it's all their fault.
The worst thing is, he gets rewarded for it!

Diving is a solo "sport". I don't care how much they preach "dive with a buddy". If your buddy is more than 20ft away, you're diving solo and you better be able to take care of yourself.

(can you tell this sort of BS gets my dander up?)

[ozmonster]

just a few observations:

Originally posted by hcs3

IMO i think the moron had no case, and should have ben sued himself. other reports of this dive said several other divers followed his lead, and all had DCS. if i was one of those other divers, he'd be in hot water right now and about to lose all of his settlement money.

Your opinion is inconsistent. If "the moron" had no case against the hotel because he should have known better, then it stands to reason that the other divers who followed his lead similarly have no case against him.

Originally posted by bomber

Some throwback gets his cert, thinks he's going to some all inclusive resort where they will "take care of him". Is obviously diving way over his skill level. Has to be the first one in. Gets his crack in a crack - and it's all their fault.
The worst thing is, he gets rewarded for it!


Actually, the worst thing was that "the throwback" got paralysed for life.

My question is: where is the compassion for fellow divers? Yeah, this guy made a big mistake but he is paying for it by having the quality of his life severly diminished.

If there was some negligence by the dive company (and it seems there was because the divemaster had his head up is $%& in not leading the group himself), then this poor guy is entitled to seek compensation. It is forseeable that resort dive companies are going to have novice divers that need a little more supervision. They must be held to a higher standard than just transportation to the dive spot and filled tanks. This dive was supposed to be 50-70 feet which is a novice dive.

Now if you all are upset at the settlement amount, you need to focus your aggression at Ritz-Carlton. They were the ones who made the sole decision to pay this money in order to avoid bad publicity.


hcs3 and bomber: you guys act as though this guy deserves what he got. I hope I never get stuck on a dive trip with divers with your attitudes.

oz

[Bomber]

Yeah, this guy made a big mistake but he is paying for it by having the quality of his life severly diminished.

But Oz, he made the mistake. His equipment was in working order, he has a depth gage. It's no different than diving a wall at any resort destination. Just because it goes to 2000ft doesn't mean you have to go there.
I tell you to drive a mile down the street and pick up something at the store, I don't tell you that the world ends at the mile and a half point. You drive a mile and a half, fall off the edge - it's not my fault. (OK that's not a good example but it's all I got ;))

I hope I never get stuck on a dive trip with divers with your attitudes.

Now I'm teasing you here, but really. When you go on dives do you expect the other divers to take you by the hand?I realize this guy made a big, could have been fatal mistake. I realize he could be paralyzed for life, or not. But even I'm not stupid enough to not look and see how deep I am. AND I agree, he was diving way over his skill level - obviously!

But from the prospective of the dive industry, what are they to do. Test and retrain every person that shows up to dive on a charter? The man was certified, he had his drivers license so to speak. He took the course, passed, and is supposed to know what he's doing. OR at least have enough common sense to know what he doesn't know and not try to play leader.

I wonder how many other divers that same group takes to that same marker buoy every day, week, month. The other divers obviously got it right.

[billsreef]

Going to 160' on a wall when your supposed to only be 50-70' without knowing it is akin to going 100mph in 55mph zone without knowing it ;) Geeze I've never not known how deep I was and couldn't even imagine being stupid enough to blindly follow someone deeper than I'm trained for or equipped for. Diving is a serious sport, your life is in your hands and you need to be responsible for it. I really hate when fools do stupid things on their own and find ways to make others responisible as it usually leads to more restrictions on those of us who are responsible divers.

[Mad Scientist]

That guy sounds like a real JA, it's people like that which lead to restrictions for everyone else.

If you don't know to come up slow and you shoot from 160' feet, instead of going up even slower than normal, what do you think is going to happen to you?

I don't feel bad for anyone who makes a mistake and blames someone else, shame on him.

People who spill coffee on themselves collect settlements too, that doesn't make them right.

I don't see how the dive boat was at fault at all.

[hcs3]

ozmaster

Your opinion is inconsistent. If "the moron" had no case against the hotel because he should have known better, then it stands to reason that the other divers who followed his lead similarly have no case against him.

that was my point. if this guy thinks he can sue for this, he should also be opening himself up to lawsuits towards himself. kinda like the old urban legend of the man who sued his insurance company because his $1000 cigars were all burned in a series of small fires.

regarding dive partners....if you're relying on a dive partner to save your life, then you should not be diving. in a perfect world, your dive partner would be the best diver around, always watches you during your dive, and could help in any situation. however, we all know this is not the case.

take responsibility for your own actions.

henry

[ozmonster]

hics3:

if you're relying on a dive partner to save your life, then you should not be diving.

I thought that was why we have dive partners. Are they just there to shoot the sh&% with after the dive? I rely on my dive partner to help me out when I need help and he can count on me to do the same. Does that mean that a dive partner is supposed to prevent you from doing something extremeley stupid? Absolutley not. This guy is very much to blame for his actions.

Does that mean that we as fellow divers can't have any compassion for other divers who make stupid mistakes?

take responsibility for your own actions.

Thanks for the tip henry. I do take responsibility for my own actions. I'm not the guy in the article. I didn't make that stupid mistake. When I said that I hope I don't get stuck on a dive trip with you guys was not because I need hand holding. I said that because I wouldn't want to get left behind if some emergency were to happen. "$#@% that guy, he should have seen that great white coming."

The points I was trying to get across are:

1) Show a little compassion for this diving casualty because he is paying for his mistake.

2) These hotel/resort dive companies are making a lot of money selling packages to all types of divers. They know that many of the divers are novice. Experienced divers ussually know not to pay the inflated prices from a hotel anyway. They offer these packages with "experienced dive masters" and probably answer any concerned novices question with, "oh no problem man. Its very safe." They should be held to a higher standard of care than your normal dive companies.

3) Noone knows what went on out there. What we do know is that the Ritz-Carlton paid 17 million to settle the case. Would they pay this much if they felt they did nothing wrong? If your ****ed off about the settlement than focus your anger on the hotel for paying it.

[gregt]

I don't think it's a lack of compassion for a fellow diver. Had he not sued, there would be a lot more compassion shown.

Yes, it is a horrible tragedy. But there was only one person capable of preventing it, and it wasn't anyone on the boat or back at the hotel.

Suites like this raise insurances rates and do damage to the sport of diving. This doesn't make me sympathetic to this diver.

What point is a certification if the dive shop is responsible for the actions of each diver?

Again, I agree that it's a horrible tragedy and it's always bad to see a fellow diver injured, but suing the hotel won't change the past.

To blame the hotel for settling is kind of like blaming a bank for giving the armed robbers the cash.

[Mad Scientist]

I'll bet part of the reason the hotel paid up was because the general non-diving public might not realize how incredible stupid it is to dive to dive to 160' on air (and I'm sure a single tank) and then break the number rule of diving and come up too fast. A non-diver might think: well they were supposed to go to 70', how much deeper is 160' or something like that.


But, the truth is that diving that deep on air without the right training or gear (IMO deep air diving is no good anyways, safe divers use mix) is a reckless act that only the person who made the choice to that deep should pay for.

[Baalz]

The hotel's dive shop, Cool Aqua Sun Sports, took Schiner and several other guests to a dive location that was supposed to be only 50 to 70 feet deep, the attorney said.

Maybe the Hotel settled because this statement is true? What was he doing in 160ft waters?

If there were 10 other divers on this boat that can testify that they were instructed that they would be at a location that was 50-70 feet deep. Then yes I can see this being a good reason to settle. Especially for the diver who stood a chance to loose the case because of his inabilities.

How would you like being a newbie, told your gonna be diving a 30' deep location and they drop you a 100' ?

[Mako]

It is indeed unfortunate any time there is an accident of this nature in our sport of diving. This particular story, as written, leaves a lot to the imagination and I am afraid we shall never know all the facts.

The fact that the Ritz-Carlton settled the lawsuit would lead one to believe that there was some negligence on their part. Certainly, not having O2 on board the boat is a grave error and a sign of negligence on the part of the operator/divemaster.

Ultimately, the most negligent party is Mr. Schiner. He obviously failed to observe multiple safety protocols in the course of this dive and as a result was severly injured. It happens all too often I am afraid.

In near 3 decades of diving I have seen, read, and heard so many of these stories. In almost every case it was a simple matter of a diver failing to follow prescribed guidelines and rules. More times than not these mistakes were a direct result of the diver failing to stop, access the situation, and react within the guidelines of which they were trained. Most times, the indivdual fails to remain calm and reacts rashly with little thought.

At 160', on air, I bet it is safe to say this gentleman was expierencing "rapture of the deep" and this may have played a large part in his poor decision process.

It's always the deep pockets that get hit the hardest and 17.5 million is a lot of money. I wonder how much of that money Mr. Schiner will ever see? I am sure his lawyer is smiling all the way to the bank.

[billsreef]

Walls in that area of the Caribean are typically steep with the shallow inner wall only being a mere few feet from the outer wall that drops into the abyss. Essentially there just is no excuse for not knowing how deep you are other being stupid and not checking your guages often.

[Mad Scientist]

Baalz


They did not trickk this guy into diving at a site 160' down, none of the other divers went this deep, most dive sites in that region have drop offs that go very deep.

I also don't think O2 is going to help you very much when you shoot up from 160', my understanding was that this guy had a lung embolism, he wasn't bent. That said I would never off a boat that didn't have O2.

[e12pilot]

my understanding was that this guy had a lung embolism, he wasn't bent. That said I would never off a boat that didn't have O2.

Actually, both a lung overexpansion injury and DCS(decompression sickness) will always be treated the same way at the actual dive site. O2 should be administered and the patient should lay down on their left side. There is no real way a divemaster, or instructor can make a detail diagnosis at the site. The patient should receive off-site medical attention immediately.

In my opinion the Ritz should not have settled this case. The divemaster was doing his job, he was not required to be in the water, as the divers that were diving were certified divers. Being on the boat was a very viable, and in my opinion good decision on the part of the divemaster. He was in a vantage point to provide support for many diver pairs at once, and could respond much more rapidly to a distressed diver on the surface than if he could if he was below the surface.

The fault here lies with the dive boat operator for not having O2 on board. Unfortunately when someone sues someone else they look for the deepest pockets, and in this it was RC's pockets.

This goes to show, lots of people out there are trying to prove something, and unfortunately SCUBA is often chosen as being a proving ground. Looking at the DAN accident fatality statistics for this past year it is surprising how many lives could have been saved with a little common sense, and reliance on training.

Have fun, dive safe

Peter Maag
PADI MSDT-179147

[Mad Scientist]

Peter,

Although O2 should be administered in either case (DCI or overexpanision) becasue it's hard to diagnose what the problem is (and in many cases someone has both), isn't it ture that O2 will be of little or no help to somone with an severe overexpansion injury (like this guy had).

Don't get me wrong, as I posted earlier, even if I'm not doing deco diving, I would never dive off a charter boat that didn't have O2 and I'm shocked this boat was not equipped. In fact, my dive buddy is an EMT and he brings his DAN O2 kit along even for shore dives. But, I just want to make the point that if you have an overexpansion injury O2 will not be of much help.

[e12pilot]

That O2 will not be very benefitial, but the commonly accepted belief is that there is nothing wrong with the administration of it, in either case. I personally think that O2 should have been administered in this case, as the divemaster was most likely unable to make a very accurate diagnosis at the scene. If he was able to, should he have still administered O2? Of course.

I agreed with you, at least one, if not two O2 kits are carried on every class/trip that I go on, no matter what. The shop I am affiliated with has about 10 for checkout. I am like you, will never dive without them.

Have fun, Dive Safe.

Peter Maag
PADI MSDT-179147

[Mad Scientist]

Yup,

I agree O2 would not have hurt this guy and might have helped a bit. I just didn't want people to read this thread and think that O2 is going to "cure" or directly treat an overexapansion injury.


Bottom line, most divers should never get over-exapnsion injuries, but, on the other hand, people do get bent. Sometimes it's their fault, sometimes it's underserved hit. I have a friend who was diving the tables, came out and took a hot shower, he was bent pretty bad, prompt O2 treatment (untill they could get him to the chamber) probably saved his life.

On a realted note, a buddy of mine dives an Inspiration Rebreather, he was trained to keep breathing off the rebreather for a bit after he's out to water just to get some pure O2 into his system. Maybe one day we'll all breath some O2 after deep or cold water dives. Heck, lots of guys do saftey stops with 100% O2 now, even if it's not a deco dive, just for the extra margin of saftey. Lots of us have been victims of "subclincal" DCI and everyone should realize that if you do even moderatly deep diving you could bent on any dive (like if you become entanlged, work hard to free yourself, overstay you bottom time as a result, and then get hypo trying to carry out an unplanned decompression).

That's why O2 always needs to available.

[mjh]

It is tragic that this person will suffer for a dumb mistake they made, but imo they are wholly responsible for their situation. Newbie or veteran, the second you decide to dive you are responsible for assessing every dive, and dive site. It does not matter how safe, shallow, or easy somebody says something is, the individual must make that judgment for themselves. This guy WAS CERTIFIED. If you are not sure YOU DON’T GET IN THE WATER. Watching your depth is RULE #2; right after making sure your air is on! If you choose to buddy dive you best agree on what you are responsible for, navigation, dive profile, emergency situations. As it has been stated if you are more than 20’ away from your buddy you are SOLO diving. No one should step in the water if they are not sure of what they are doing; there are no small problems at 100’. I am tired of the abdication of responsibility by people going into the outdoors; Mother Nature does not care about you. The only thing the resort should be responsible is for not having the correct safety equipment on board. Thanks for letting me rant!

[e12pilot]

and unfortunately in todays society people never feel at fault for their own actions. Usually what happens is people tend to make a mistake and for some reason take the easy(and profitable) way out and sue someone.

In terms of diving it is interesting how most people act when they dive directly after being certified. They are completely dependent on having someone there with them to show them the way. There is nothing wrong with this, but I feel this attitude continues throughout their dive education. The program I work with has recognized this and we actively try and stop this kind of behavior. Students taking an advanced class directly after their initial open water training often ask questions they could answer themselves if they rely on their initial training. We often tell them that they are certified and to think about it and make a decision. More often than not the decision is the correct one. I personally feel that more instructors should teach more self-reliance rather than just the bare minimum required by most training organizations. Just my .02

Peter Maag