Don't laugh... All I have is a tank... and a dream (nightmare?)

[SunDevil95]

So, my brother-in-law gave me some money for X-mas to 'clean-up' my severly alge encrusted reef tank which just about everything had died. This 30gallon reef tank had 2 skilters and was going fine until the (once planted) anemone (after stinging some corals.. but I ddin't have much in the 1st place) got sucked into the intake, and somehow a a fish and starfish got entangled along with it Things went haywire from there. The only apparent survivor was a damsel that I had many times before contemplated returning to the store if only I could catch it. I don't know what happened to my water, because as fast as I could blink, everything was overtaken. In addition to that, my house basically flooded and we were in a rental house for 2 months and in the process I lost all of the battle to save my tank. With a green algae mess, and a world of confusion with absolutely no time, the tank (stupidly) went outside. Since this tank was pretty much effortless (few fish... fewer corals... lots of live rock), I was pretty much on autopilot for the 3 years that I had it set up. I don't think I was even close to an expert... more like an informed novice at any given point in time. (So basically I know OLD information specifically on that 30 gal tank only).

Sorry about the sob story... get to the point.

Using the money that my brother-in-law gave me to clean up (at that time) the tank I now focused on re-starting. I became an impulse (craigslist) shopper for some unknown reason and purchased a (used) 63 gal acrylic tank 48"x16"x19" with some big plans (and as I am finding out... not enough money). I am in need of 2 things: 1) Good (no GREAT) advice on doing things (VERY ECONOMICALLY) economically for this size tank and 2) Any deals on some equiptment that you may have lurking in your cabinets. I really should have known better about the costs and I'm kicking myself over it... but there's got to be a way... and if anyone has advice on what I could cut corners on to get running at least.

My goals are:
A) To have the tank built by next week
B) To have it cycled by mid-August
B) To have the a cleaner crew of snails, crabs, misc.. by the end of August
C) Some fish by September
D) Introduce 'easy' corals by mid-September

Here's my plan... (please comment... and guide me both good and bad (i.e.- stay away from...)
1) Find someone who's exiting the hobby or upgrating to another size and get 'lucky' and score a lot for a little. Are there any other AZ forums (I only know craigslist, the newspaper, and now this forum) out there for trading?
2) Reviving my (dead) liverock. I soaked my (sun bleached, 3 month bone dry, 40lbs) rock in a super salt concentrate for a couple of days in a rubbermaid tub (someone told me to bleach it with a 25% solution... could that be right?). I plan to buy some (cured or uncured?) liverock and then revive this (dead) liverock. Good plan?!? What is the minimal amount of (cured or uncured) liverock that I should buy to do this most efficiently (or since bacteria is bacteria... does a little go a long way)? A salesperson at a store told me that there is a liquid bacteria (good bacteria only) treatment... would that speed (or even replace) the liverock decision? I was thinking of buying some liverock tomorrow, putting on some light and my old skilters on the old rock, and hope that all will be ready in (a few days, weeks, months)??? Either way, I'm hoping to aim for about 90lbs in the tank (40 of it I already have). Will livesand help? Is 40lbs livesand added to my 30lbs of crushed (sundried with my deadrock) coral substrate be okay?
3) Filtration. I know my 2 skilters are laughable at this new endeavor. Is a sump (reading up on building it now... any suggestions) better (including economical) than going for a canister filter (called a fluval?)? If I went with a sump, is there any good web instructions? How big should it be (minimum and realistically optimal). If I went with a canister fluval, which my be best for it (63 gal tank). What is an economical value selection for a protein skimmer? Also, I'm confused, is a sump the same as a fuge?
4) Lighting... will a corallife 48" with lunars for about $245 be a good value? and efficient for the 19" depth? It has 4 separate compact flourescent tubes. From my 30 gal tank, I have 2 others that I could also take out and retrofit to make a total of 6 tubes, but I'm not sure what the hood would look like with the corallife 48. I'm not even sure if I'm going to like just having the corallife 48 on top. Building a hood (due to expenses) will probably be the last thing on my list.
5) Are my steps okay sofar? Am I forgetting anything? Of course I don't even have a stand for the tank, but I'm pretty good with woodworking... but I don't know what dimensions I need underneath for the sump/fuge... another project unless I find a cabinet already which will dictate what I can put under.

There's about 100 more questions, but I plan to pick some other store worker's brain tomorrow. I've spoken to 2, but they were almost completely opposites on their advice and I think they were both just focused on selling me things. I need help from those who will guide me in the situation that I'm in (on a bare budget but intending to add later to improve things).

Thanks for you help. I should've done more research... I should've thought about the costs... and this is not typical of me... but for some reason I just thrust myself onto this... and I really want it, but as a schoolteacher with no income over the summer, I'm at a loss. I've got to be smart from here on in if I'm going to do it right, and I need your advice. Thanks!

[Reef-o-Roni]

I would go at least vho's on the lighting.like 4 of them.They look better than pc's and Imho i think they are better.Ive seen them on here for less then 250$ some with halide too.

[Reef-o-Roni]

And I would buy equipment rated for more than what you tank calls for.It will happen soon you'll want a bigger tank.And when you get it you'll have all the equip already.:)

[random_ryan]

I have a 150w halide pendant for sale.

oh and if the deal falls through I will have a 2 x 150w metal halide in a fixture for sale. I will let you know. let me know if your interested,
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1154071&highlight=halide

[random_ryan]

you can run a fuge in your sump but alot of people run thier fuge seperate

[random_ryan]

here's another thing why don't you post your other equipment for sale that your not going to use.

theres a guy on here thats selling a ASM G2 skimmer.

here's the link...
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1149087&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

[SunDevil95]

Should I have PM'd you two or written on here? Anyway, here it goes. Thanks for the quick replies.

Thanks Reef!,
Like I was trying to elude to... I only know that 30gal tank on old (3 years ago) information (I'm so novice!). I've heard bad things about VHO, but I'm not sure what IMHO is. I'll go look it up right after this. If I go with the corallife 48" deluxe lighting, its because I have 2 'extra' tubes and it seems to be the 'cheapest' hood included way to go. I get what you're saying about upgrading, but I really don't see that happening. This was a HUGE jump. I'm so surprised I did it because I was actually REALLY happy with my 30 (until things went bad).

Random Ryan!,
I've read a lot of your posts on other threads. Great advice! I was thinking halides were way over my limit, but you have me curious. Can the halide(s) do it on their own, or do you have to have an actinic/10,000K bulbs as well? I'm assuming a pendant hangs down... what would I need to build? Will 1 halide sufficient? How much $? If your deal falls through on the 2 in a fixture, I'm ears. Where's the guy with teh ASM G2 skimmer? I'm looking.

[Kentanner11]

I am in pretty much the same boat as you, I have a slightly smaller tank (55g.) and some things I have done to reduce costs:
1) Alot of DIY (do it yourself) this is great, I am currently making a skimmer out of a 5gal. water jug, with a few powerheads. I already had the powerheads and all I think Im going to spend is 25$- I have also made my own overflow (to bring water into the sump)-and my own stand (the cost savings werent dramatic, but I made it to fit what I wanted in the stand, where I wanted)
2) Go to yard sales- I found a 10g tank, fluval powerhead, Clip on light, and a few other things for 10$
3) Ask people on here about buying something first, I almost bought a really lame Ro/DI unit (water filter) on Ebay, but I asked here first and well, I didnt buy it.
4)Group Buys- You are lucky enough to live in the FRAG area and take advantage of the Group Buys, you can get some really good prices on stuff, and pay like nothing on shipping
5) Find other FRAG members in your area! This can help alot when power goes out or for showing off your tank. lol!
Anyways good luck!

[JeffKirk]

From one novice to another, If at all possable go w/ the Halides if you can. I bought a 48" CF fixture w/ moonlights for 150.00 so your price on them is running a little high. I now wish I would have spent a little more & went w/ Halides w/ VHO or something. With that said My intent is to add Hallides to my CF down the road.

One thing you dont have in your list is a QT (Quartine Tank). A 10g w/ powerhead will do. I'm running a 10g w/ powerhead & Prizm skimmer.

If you want to save money (and your nervous sanity)the best advice I can give is to SLOW DOWN!!
As I've been told sooo many times in here "only BAD things happen fast".

Please understand this is all In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) as I am too a novice, and as things are going very well in my reef right now, I have went a little too fast and am nervous (testing 2-3 times a day).

Good Luck & Welcome. You will find the guys/gals here to be the most helpfull people on the planet.

[capn_hylinur]

I would be starting to cycle that rock----put it in normal marine saline--.026 salinity, and a power head and heater--and let it start to cycle. Then it will be ready when you set up your next tank.
You need 4-6 weeks to cycle so that tank should be up and running this week to make the mid Aug goal

[SunDevil95]

Thanks Kentanner, JeffKirk, & Capn!,
I just got back from the LFS (catching on) where I prodded for information. Amazing... 3rd person I spoke with... 3rd COMPLETELY different advice. I was on this crazy thing until 4AM last night (up at 8). I think I'm hooked, but I learned A LOT! (Also somehow, I'm more confused in some ways... but I've got more time to read further back!) Thanks to everyone for their advice!
Thanks Kentanner for the advice. There's a few benefits to doing my own work... 1) Cheap prices 2) Actually knowing and understanding how things work and 3) the pride of doing it myself. Might have to use you in the future!
Thanks for the advice JefKirk. The only thing that I feel that I'm rushing is buying equiptment, but I'm really asking and picking people's ideas. It seems that everyone has their own way of doing things. I'm almost the the point of going eenie-meenie-miney-mo. I think I'm just searching for someone who has a generally duplicate advice of someone beforehand. "Go with halides", "Halides are too hot and expensive", "They're too much for what you're doing right now... wait and add them later", "T5's are better than CF's", "CF's are the best bang for your buck"...etc. / "Go with a sump, canisters will be too much mechanical filtration", "All you need is a good protein skimmer and some powerheads.. no mechanical filtration outside of that", "You need THIS canister for a bunch of reasons"... etc. Heeding your advice though, I plan to actually go SLOWER, once I'm running... Are you saying IMHO that my timeline is way too fast? Can you give me a timeline that you would be on. This timeline was by a store worker, but another worker at another store said that it was pretty much right on... give or take a week and how it goes.
Thanks Capn! I'm planning on getting it started tonight.

[Philwd]

My tank is a bit bigger than yours but a great deal of what I went through applies.

- Start with very well cured rock. It will greatly help reduce the algae cycles you will see. And the frustration on how bad your tank looks.
- Go slow even on equipment purchases. I thought I did but even taking 4 mos. to sort through I still bought POS hardware.
- I may have missed it but what our your ultimate goals for this tank? You need to be explicit on those before you can finalize your equip list. You said easy corals. Does that mean you will be satisfied with zoas and softies? Or will you want to venture into LPS and SPS land. These choices will greatly affect your 3 big purchases; lights, skimmer and flow.

When people give you their opinion what to buy they rarely say what tank they run. You need to know this to understand their perspective. I run a hardcore SPS system. My answers will reflect the equip and husbandry needed for SPS. It would be overkill if you want a fish only or fish + softies system.

- I saw no mention of how to prevent Mr. Murphy from striking. I wrote up a beginners guide to avoiding catastrophe a while back. I'll look for the link later.

- A qt for fish at a minimum. I think 10G is too small and places undue stress on the fish. I have always used 20G as a minimum and 30G when the fish was bigger or qting multiple fish.

-Refugiums, or fuges for short, are great and you may want to plan it in. Not necessary to start with but much depends on how much you can put under your stand etc. My fuge is part of my sump. Others have room to make a separate fuge. Definitely try and plan for one so it will be easy if it needs to be added later.

- If you are a skilled craftsman you can do wonderful things DIY. I am not so I tend to buy for quality. I hear lots of horror stories after the fact on DIY. If you go that route make sure you understand the pitfalls involved.

I have to run but I'll look for the links later tonight.

Phil

[random_ryan]

I myself do not run halides. different coral need different light. Most of my corals are deep water corals So for this reason I use a completely different set up.

As far as th G2 goes I run 2 of them and modded them. if you need help with the mods I would be more than willing to help.

Also I do alot of my own DIY. and would be more than willing to help you out if need be.

[SunDevil95]

Thanks Philwd. I was just about to PM you. You were mentioned (very well recommended) by Aphenes that had superior information to share. As far as I'm concerned at this point, you are my 2 mentors. I can't wait to meet others though and learn more.

- I was planning on cured rock from the beginning, but a guy at the store said to go uncured. Thanks for this tidbit. For my info though, what are the advantages/disadvantages of both?
- Slow on hardware... how will I really every know? I'm serious, everyone's partial to their stuff (or stuff they sell). For economic reasons, I'm looking to buy all used stuff. The plan (for now) is that I want stuff that will get the job done and as I learn more aquire (new or used) good stuff while selling the stuff that got me by. I don't want POS stuff, but I want stuff that will hold it's resale value (Good deals) as I don't know when upgrades will be possible (I'm picturing after X-mas realistically). I do understand and know that I want to start now so that by fall everything is pretty much established and I can enjoy the hobby without big worries. (Maybe my family can actually buy aquarium presents and I won't have to worry about a haywire tank and what an introduction will do to it)
- Ultimate goals... Remember I'm a novice at this... so I don't really know exactly (the names especially)... I like the flowing effects, so I see a VARIETY of softies corals. I LOVE critters... meaning that the shrimps and hermit crabs that I had were fun to me... and they were pretty plain. Fish... great, but not especially focused on it unless they're peculiar in some way and I like 'hiders' of some sorts. A few 'regular' fishes (for others to enjoy), but I would say that they are pretty much the lowest on the totem pole of things I like (but not to say that I wont have them... just not the focus). I like 'looking' for things in a 'where's waldo' type of way. My other tank, was going for 3 years with minimal things, but I enjoyed watching by brittle stars and hermit crabs mostly. I only started to dabble with star polyps, mushrooms, and buttons before things went bad. I don't really see hard corals or difficult things like clams in the near future, but perhaps in 5 years from now IF I were to get bored (which I don't really see). I like the sump idea only because it will hide most of the components that are unsightly or likely to spray mist a layer of salt here and there.
- I'm not sure what Mr. Murphy is???
- Finally... a usable rubric for the size of the sump (1 qt / fish... got it)
- I pretty much assumed that the refugium was the clerks' selling me on things idea, but it sounded interesting and something I should check into. It's a little on the back-of-the-mind (but leave room for possiblities) right now.
- I'm a novice but successful DIY'er in a few different things so far. I understand things a lot more and (and especially) it makes me want to learn about things more strangely, when I do it myself. I do usually know when I'm over my head, and need to pony up for just buying it though.

[Philwd]

I just a few moments now and I'll check back later.

- very well cured rock will lessen if not completely eliminate the algae cycles your tank gets on startup. The cycle will create a TON of nutrients in your tank as part of the decay process. What will thrive on those nutrients is a variety of algae. And they will come in turn. Diatoms, then hair algae and possibly cyano and dinoflagellates(ok these are not technically algae but you really don't want them). Having well cured rock means little if any extra nutrients.

To give you an example I am currently starting up 2 new tanks.( I know glutton for punishment). One is a 14G nano for my son. The other is a 50G coral propogation tank. I got 4-5 week cured rock for the nano and 4 month rock for the prop tank. Nano is currently in hair algae mode while the prop tank has no detectable nitrates and a very low level of phosphates.

Tradeoff is you likely pay more for the well cured rock.

- there are a ton of what I call "club" threads on RC. The Euroreef skimmers club, the ASM skimmer club etc. You will find lots of positives and drawbacks to consider. If you rely on people selling their stuff for opinions well you know the saying...

Again my example. I saw this Via Aqua skimmer that cost a few hundred less than the Euroreef I was considering. I saw them both at the LFS and stared at them working on 2 different systems for weeks. I decided I couldn't tell the difference and bought the cheap one. Well came to find out it needed a very special area to be setup for best efficiency. Turned out the LFS by accident had it in that setup but I couldn't duplicate it due to my sump design. If I had found the skimmer threads I would have known. Took me about 4 additional months to realize my mistake.

I know some of this you can only learn by trial and error. But the more you read before hand the less likely you'll make a bad decision.

- The goals are important. I know it is tough to decide. Believe me I know. Have been back and forth on the nano forever. BUT you will end up buying stuff you have to upgrade if you don't decide up front. Count on getting no more than 30-50% back on any purchase.

So if you really don't plan on SPS for 5 years then I'd say you are ok. My experience is people change their minds well before then. Sooo plan for the top end organisms you can forsee.

- How many fish you plan on having will also dictate some equipment like skimmer. More fish the bigger the skimmer. Try and buy one rated higher than your tank. Many are actually underrated so you'll get a better match and the extra capacity helps if you have a catastrophe.

- Mr. Murphy i.e. Murphy's Law. Basically catastrophic problem prevention. How to bullet proof your setup.

- sump size roughly 1/3 the display at a minimum. Bigger rarely fits under the stand though.

- get the RC premium membership. Really cheap at $25 and the search function will pay for itself many times over in informed buying decisions.

[SunDevil95]

Thanks Philwd! I had to eat dinner and now I'm rushing out to do some recon to learn a little more and then to see a guy about his exit from the hobby. I ran the listing by Alphenes and he wasn't all completely thrilled, but I said I'd drop by and talk shop earlier. Maybe if he comes down a little.... ???

The buying used seems to be the best economic advantage at this time, and then selling back is also not a big hit on the pocketbook either. I know I'm riding a rollercoaster though.

I can't forsee a jump until I'm completely comfortable with what I call 'the easy(ier)' stuff. I've had freshwater all my life (30+ years), and the saltwater reef that worked for 3 years (a year ago) was my 1st dabble and from that experience I know it takes a year to get comfortable. With this much water and the much bigger possibilities, I'm sure I'll be entertained for a good long time.

Sorry... a little slow on the uptake for Mr. Murphy.

I'll check back later.

[LowerUnit]

"I had to eat dinner and now I'm rushing out to do some recon to learn a little more and then to see a guy about his exit from the hobby."

Not sure what your interpretation of "slow down" is, but I think that is a key element being presented to you.

Deals are everywhere, but cheap doesn't mean it's what you want or better yet need.

An example may be - you have $100 budgeted in mind for lighting and find a cheap deal for $75, slooooooowww down and decide if it's overall a better idea to save your lunch money for another week and get some better good used lighting that costs $150 which will not be a problem growing the critters you are going to be fond of after spending some hard earned cash on them, not to mention ultimately having to spend $150 upgrading shortly into the future. Otherwise put - $75 today + $150 a few months later after loosing $100 worth of critters due to light inefficiency = overall lighting cost of $325 plus another $100 to replace lost critters instead of slowing down and buying a little better lighting in the first place. (BTW - this cost analogy is very conservative) :confused:

I understand the excitement and OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) as I am guilty of learning the hard way. Remember, a smart person learns from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from other's mistakes. :mixed:

Good luck whatever way you decide! :thumbsup:

[random_ryan]

i agree with lower unit....well said

[capn_hylinur]

My advise is to do your research--which you are doing----and then buy used for your first tank.
I didn't--by the time I was out of the store I spent 4 grand--110 gal high, 30 gal sump, berlin skimmer, coral life canopy-twin 150watt halides, 96 watt attinics, uv sterlizer, and a pump that gave me a tank turn over rate of 5 times per hour
This was "everything I needed--I was doing everything right"
In the last year I have put the sump in the basement, added a refugium and increase the flow rate in the tank to 22 times and hour. I have added three powerheads and a waveaction controller to increase the type and rate of flow in the tank.
The lighting is adequate for most lps corals and it will allow some sps to survive but certainly not to get the deep beautiful colours out of them. I was sold the light system because it was surrounded by a wooden canopy and was causing heat problems
I solved this myself by removing the ballasts to the basement also and rewiring
6 months later I friend of mine decides he wants a reef tank like mine. He has had six months to learn from me-------checks out the adds on our local form and for 1400 bucks gets a 120 gal, 60 gal sump, hugh mother skimmer, wave machine, and the tank has a closed loop system(does away with unsightly power heads), For lighting he has 2-250watt halides and 4 attinics.

Look in the adds here, it is probably a guy with a lot of experience and he will be glad to help you.

Honestly dealers see guys like you and me coming :)

Oh Murphy refers to Murphy's Laws--it a bunch of laws based around the concept if anything can go wrong it will" :)

http://www.murphys-laws.com/

[pupfish]

IMVHO - 2 RULES:

1.No matter how long it takes to save up the $$, don't go with a poorly built skimmer. Buy the best. I've got an AquaC-Remora Pro with a MAG 3 HOB on my 75g. Wasn't cheap, but worth every penny spent (and time saving up those pennies). There are several top of the line brands out there for sumps. Don't skimp on the skimmer!

2. Same for lights. Doesn't mean you need halides. MH may actually be TOO bright for what you want to keep. There are plenty of softies and even sps (some monties, for instance) that'll do fine under PC's, VHO or T-5 HO's. Decide what you want and research those organisms needs. (I've recently been considering setting up a non-photosynthetic sessile invert tank.) But regardless of type of lighting, make sure the brand is reputable, well-known and has a good warranty plan. I bought an inexpensive T5-HO unit from a company and now am paying dearly for it. There's a HUGE lighting thread on the forums with lots (maybe too much) info.

As far as main system filtration goes - they're so many options and folks are constantly debating which is best. All you can do is ask, read, research and pick one (or two). That's part of the fun/horror of this hobby. The last chapter of any aspect of it hasn't been written yet.

Meredith

[SunDevil95]

Thanks all! I am moving at break-neck speed, but believe me, I'm probably going to make a slow decision. I have about 2 'completely free' weeks before I need to go into teacher mode and with new classes, I'll be slammed for another month. I've gone to several LFS's and picked (sometimes 2) their brains for advice. I never knew of a site like this back when I was doing it and I have to say I've learned more in the past 48 (with great advice, I might add... I've been on a lot!!!) than when I was in this 'assembly' phase 4-5 years ago. I aslo might add, there's about a million more choices to add to the confusion.

I don't know what is good, or even great, at this point (It's hard to decide if it's just the salesman selling me things)... but I think I'm starting to get a picture of what is bad or what to stay away from. Going face to face with salemen is what I had to do a few years ago, and what I'm comfortable with because as one question gets answered, it seems like there's another 10 that come up. I'm not great yet with this board (I've only done a few bulletin boards in my life) and so sometimes it's hard to keep track of which question I asked who (PM's especially)... those other 10 new questions are confusing to keep track of.

My short range goal is to:
To rejuvenate my dead rock to live rock
I would like to factor in my 50lbs (I finally weighed it) of (now dead) rock, but I know that it will take a couple of months to re-spawn it. My startup goal at 1.25lbs per gallon for a 63gallon = 70-80lbs. I'm figuring that if I buy 30lbs and revive my rock, I'll be there and then I can add another 20lbs somewhere before I start thinking about putting live things in the tank.
- Conflicting reports on doing this... some said... no you don't need a skimmer for rejuvenating rock, some say I do. (Interestingly, some say that I don't even need a skimmer at all?!?) I'm researching all of this and I'm staying open-minded. Lights a must though.

So I'm at the crossroad... to which I'm (admittedly) trying to hurry (meaning another 2 weeks). My solution...
- Buy a lighting unit at a GREAT 'steal' that in 2 months during the revival of the liverock will most likely go on top of the tank to start and to be used until (the earliest upgrade forseen) Spring (when I might have money again) or if it is trully a great steal then something that will be used forever. Cost/value goal that I'm looking for... USED that will (in 6 months) re-sell for about 90% of what I got it for (so this excludes all new store bought items probably). The skimmer... that can be another 2 months decision, but since I'm in the lights shop, I'm doing an overview recon. I hate to say it, but I'm using the dealers right now, but there will be plenty of time to take my money later and I'm also getting a feel of which stores I feel I can trust.

I like your advice pupfish, but someone told me more $ doesn't always mean better. I am looking though to HEALTHILY (meaning within reason) do things more than what they're rated... for instance get a skimmer that's rated for 100gal or better for my 63gal tank.

How about this... starting with lighting... what (specific) BRANDS would be good for a 63g (48"Lx16"Wx19"D) reef with softies for corals and a few fish... I am NOT planning on harder SPS's or clams for at least 3 years. Sorted by costs:

High-
Medium-
Low-
Best Value advice for me:

Thanks all. This will help me know what I'm looking for.

[Aaron]

JCKobashi
You're asking a lot of questions that have answers that will vary with each person that answers. Most everything is personal preference... lighting amount, colors, lbs of rock, amount of flow, etc... there is no 1 answer (or even 2 or 3).
Examples:
I have 60-65lb of rock in my 29g... it is required... maybe, maybe not. For me it is, others will tell me it is not... then again, I never use a skimmer... most everyone else does... my tank is stable, unless I do something stupid, and it recovers very quickly with simple water changes... does theirs?
I like a slight blue tint to the colors of my tank and have balanced my MH & T5s accordingly to ballance color, light amount, and growth of all types of corals... this is over 4 years of; research, trying different lighting types, bulb combos, color combos, etc... most have not done this and those that have will have a different preference to tell you about.

So what I'm saying is ultimately YOU are the one that can give you the best answers... we can only give our opinions... and you know what they say about opinions ;)

If you are a DIYer give me a call... I can give you lots of good info on doing higher-end stuff on the cheap... or just buy my setup and you are good to go :P

[senatormoe31]

FIRST!!! slow down, buy some BOOKS---"AQUARIUM CORALS by Borneman, REEF INVERTS by Calfo and Fenner, REEF SECRETS by Nielsen&Fossa, Fartheree etc, there are lots of great books with PROVEN methods. SECOND!! read them. Third, talk to some experts- go to some (not just one) lfs's, and talk to the people there. look around, how does it look,smell, what do the tanks look like, what do the animals look like? do the employees even have "existing" tanks. Fourth, slow down again and plan your tank! what animals do I want?, What corals do I want?, how do i shape my aqauscape to best suit the needs for the animals, the flow rate, the lighting, my equipment, and lots more. make time to play devils advicate and don't let anyone/anywhere turn your tank into theirs. just some thoughts.

[jeeperrs]

This is my idea on lighting since money is an issue for you. I have a fixture with T5 and MH bulbs. The T5 bulbs don't raise my tank temp at all. when my MH turns on I have to run a small fan to keep my temp stable, this costs more electric. The MH bulbs are 2-3 times more expensive than the T5s. you will need to keep that in mind as you will have to change them all about every 8-12 months. I think MH is just a lot more expensive than T5 and if I had to do it over I would only run T5s.
For the filter.... My new tank I am setting up will not use a canister filter because I will have a sump. the sump will allow me to run carbon or anything else I may need. Also, canister filters can suck when it is time to clean them. My 75 gallon uses a canister filter but that is because I don't have a sump on it and I like to run carbon all the time. I hope this post does not have too many errors, I am typing this on my phone. I will give you a more detailed response when I have a better keypad to type on ha-ha.

[jerryz]

There are almost as many solutions as there are people giving advice. The funny part is that almost all of the solutions can/ have worked for giving the advice. The important part is to define your goals and then you can define what will work to that end.

Read more. Once you have settled on a clear idea of what kind of tank you want then you can begin to define your limiters in terms of finances, tank size, time available... well the list the list can be long.

After all of that. collect the pieces parts to execute your plan and develop a timeline. As someone on RC's tagline says nothing good in reefing ever happens fast.

[Kentanner11]

heres a quote that speaks truth:
The only thing two reefers can agree on is what the third is doing wrong!
lol! Just came to mind.

[SunDevil95]

Forgive my rants... but this thread is also like a diary of my thoughts so I can keep track of it... also, one of my friends told me that this is good for me and anyone that is wanting to help, so they can see the evolution of the thought processes. Thank you for your posts, because I REALLY am listening and learning a great deal. I'm having a difficult time putting it all together because the advice is very different in some cases, but I'm still learning and (occasionally) it coincides and starts to click for me.

Reef Secrets was also mentioned to me, but the store I went to was out of it. I'll go look. I've asked in some of the stores and some stores seemed to stock mostly 'dictionaries' and not really explainatory things (or some were just too... complicated... meaning it seems like I need a PhD.). I thought I would read up on the internet instead, but I'll sport for a good book. I've been to 4 different stores in the past 4 days and maybe I've spoken with weird people but one guy told things like that I should bleach my 'dead'rock before I plan to rejuvenate it. The next person said, "Absolutely not!". (But then again, I thought supergluing corals was absurd). One told me to scrub the old rock clean, and another told me not to touch it because there's already a good 'base' (of Calcium?) from when it was alive. So even with speaking to people I'm a little confused. I've been nothing but extremely humble... because I don't know a lot, but the more I ask questions, the more options seem to pop out.

Here's what I do know...
I haven't bought anything but a tank at this point... there was a reason for that... (and I hope I don't change)... I didn't want to get sidetracked towards going bigger. I know that's a little strange, but it works for me... and I've been tempted, believe me. I really wanted to do a DIY project and build a stand/hood but I think I'm going to run out of time (school starts in a few weeks and then I'm super-crazy busy for about a month- until things settle)... so I'm thinking not a good project and am looking (wife advising) on likes of this furnature. The 'rush' was to get dimensions so that a sump could be considered. The only REAL THING THAT I KNOW FOR SURE is that I do want to IMMEDIATELY start cycling my (deadrock) with liverock meaning I need lights ASAP (along with some flow). I'm hoping that by adding about 50lbs of live rock (and perhaps sand) to my 45lbs of dead(live)rock, the rock will have a good head start by mid-September. Along with water changes and test (still have them from when I was in the hobby a year ago) I've been told to start with at LEAST 1lb of rock/gal (1.5x was recommended... and goal is at least 2x when things start going) and although I don't expect the 50LR + 40Dead to have completely created all bacteria in 2 months, I think it may be a good start point. I've got patience after that. I'm afraid the 4th step of planning my tank is a macro view right now... meaning I think I'm thinking of what my (I was assuming before, but now its this) 21-ish gallon previous tank had... I had a few fish, a bunch of live rock, with CF's, 2 skilters, and a powerhead and critters. It was mindless actually but I really enjoyed it. Just liked looking at the water and some crabs walking around on the rocks even. For almost a year at the end I started with some softies (GSP, mushrooms, 'buttons")corals, and enjoyed watching them propogate. It was like a new hobby after 2 years of rock, critters, and few fish, but I was buying everything from a store paying big prices... I couldn't afford a lot often... I added 1 new coral/mushroom about every 4-5 months.

I never could have big fish with the old tank, and now this 63 seems like I've moved from a studio apartment to a mansion. I'm thinking that I would still like to maybe try challenging things down the road, but I want to have what I had before... rocks, critters, some corals, and few fish. Everyone's saying you'll want to go bigger, and they could be right, but I'm pretty simple and I don't see it happening for a couple of years at the least. I do want to (at this time) be prepared to go there, by overaccomodating a little (I can't find the right word for this... like planning a 10x turnover rate when 6x was recommended or something... just using numbers...). I like the idea of a sump/refugium... mostly because of the water level (skimming the top... that was an eyesore to me with my other tank occasionally), and for hiding the equiptment. This IS going to be a main focal point of our livingroom (opposed to the 21 that was in a corner)

Jeepers... thanks for the information! I think you're the 4th or 5th to verify some good information on T5's and that's what I needed to hear. (I'm sorry, but I don't think I should go with just 1 or 2). I was toying with going halides because as some say "It's the best", but I think they're way out of my league and I wouldn't really get the benefit from them for an estimated few years. And you can always add/change later right? I've done CF's so I was comfortable, but off the bat, some advised me against it. I'm planning on T5's, and will go with CF's if there's a screaming deal. Here's a question... could I go with flouescents (meaning enough to power my tank) and use a single halide as an occasional use (I like the glistening effect... but I only want it when I'm actually there watching it)?

Whew... okay... note to self... slow down... (am I still going too fast?)

[SunDevil95]

That's hilarious Kentanner! But so true! I was in a store... helped by one person for about 30 minutes... on my way to the car... but turned around to look at a price when another salesperson started talking to me. I ended spending another 45 because he just about told me every single thing that the other guy said was not necessarily wrong, but ABSOLUTELY NOT the way he would do it. That was the 1st experience that I had (before joining RC- but I (was told) expected some dissention at RC).

[Kentanner11]

Hey about your question of the Ocassional MH, I dont think that is possible because your corals will be used to the fl, and not the MH, so you will end up bleaching them and it wouldnt be the best for the MH either, like in the morining I want to look at it for 20min. so turn it on, then turn it off, you will be turning this thing on and off like crazy, which I think wears out the bulbs and ballast.

[Kentanner11]

Hey is this tank drilled, or are you going to use an overflow?

[SunDevil95]

It is not drilled at this time... (it's acryllic) but I was considering... and with that... where and why questions start to fill up my brain... I'm leaining towards it...

Shoot... I was hoping it would be like... giving your pet a treat every now and then... The problem is that I will be looking at the tank every day, however there are some (days at a time) weeks that I won't get to sit and REALLY look at it (but maybe 10 minutes before passing out), and other day (weekends mostly) that I would like to really showcase it (have a MH on) where I have time to really look at it. I think the MH will be overkill (and hotter... straining the AC and a chiller... but mostly my pocketbook) over time. I couldn't use the MH on the weekends and the flouescents during the week?

[Kentanner11]

You will end up bleaching/killing your corals, its like you living in your house with NO windows open and just your lights, and then on the weekends going outside all day. It will shock your fish cause of the added heat.
Acryllic is much easier to drill.
So heres what I think you should do: Come up with a list of fish/coral inverts that you would like to have in your tank.
From that we can tell you what kindof lights, filtration, etc.

[jeeperrs]

when I get home tonight I will link you to a tank in our club. his tank is a little over 600 gallons and amazing to look at (he also has the PhD you think you need for this hobby ha-ha). he only uses T5s and grows all types of corals. I really don't care what you get but I let people talk me into MH and I would have been happier with just T5s lol.

[jeeperrs]

This is his thread. http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1022934

[SunDevil95]

Wow. Jeepers... Now why do you have to go and show me that for! :) And yes, I guess he does actually have a PhD! Where do you instruct Psychology?

Kentanner, I'll start writing some things down when I go to the LFS, because I don't really know where this hobby will take me. From my last tank, I really enjoyed watching:

Corals
Experience with-
Green Star Polyps (I think... I had a really flourescent green style) propagate (sp? too lazy to check), I had mushrooms which weren't extremely exciting, but I thought they added a lot, a featherduster (one was nice to add interest), and some buttons (I think they're called that).
Wants-
I really enjoyed seeing the pulsing xenia and I really want those.

For the most part, everything that is in the lower lighting tanks at the LFS' look great to me. There's a couple of things in the halide lit tanks at the LFS that interest me, but couldn't I just put it up a little higher in the tank if I wanted to dabble? I think I just want a lot of variety and that doesn't have to necessarily include the halide lit things because there's enough of the lower lighting needs corals. I actually like the swaying (moving) corals a lot. What do you (or anyone else) recommend of things that (they) I should have that are interesting (must haves for them)? (No, I'm not trying to be unoriginal... I just want to go and make sure I make a note of them when I go and check it out).

Fish- I'd like some, but nothing really jumps out... I just want a little (and I actually think I can follow a little) for everyone. Some top swimmers, some mid-level swimmers, and what I like the most... the skittish hiders.

I know it sounds a little funny, but I really just liked watching corals spread around, and mostly watching the critters (hermits, snails, stars) run around. For instance, I REALLY want this crab I once saw that picks up things that he finds around the tank and somehow attaches it to himself to hide. My wife and I are doing it together. She likes the fish, but she agrees that critters are pretty cool. I'd like a jawfish for sure. Saw a batfish today... if it is reef safe, I'd consider. If I like the fish, I'd like a little out of the ordinary but not necessarily exotic.

Does this make sense?
Recommendations for Lighting??? (Jeeperrs' thread was AaaaaMAZING with only T5's)
Filtration???- Again, I think (pretty sure) we can keep it within (most likely under) reason in the fish category.

Anyways, I'll heed your advice and start making some notes Kentanner! I just listed things above to give you a peek insight. I just like watching some things grow and pop up here and there. Thanks for your help!

[Kentanner11]

Im not totally for sure, but I think you could get buy with T-8, or so, But I havent learned all my corals and their needs yet.
Others will have to chime in.

I love the swaying (moving) corals too!!!
Filtration: A sump with a fuge would be best, but....

[jeeperrs]

For filtration I think you should have a skimmer and something for carbon. If you want to run a sump you can put your carbon in the sump. If you don't want to run a sump you can run a hang-on or canister filter. I think carbon is great idea in conjunction with your skimmer. Some say you don't need carbon. They may be totally right that you don't need it but I like the extra filtration :) Since money is an issue I would buy the best skimmer you can find for a good price and then get something that is cheap for the carbon. Again, if you have a sump you can run your carbon in that.

I can't tell you what fish to get though. Fish is something that you have to find what you like most. After you figure out what you want REALLY REALLY bad, then look to see what can live with it ha-ha. I want mandarin fish REALLY REALLY bad so I have made sure to pick only fish that will live well with the mandarin so there will be minimal problems when I add it.

The corals you listed are on the easier side. I think you will be able to do all of those. The only issue with them is that you will have to trim them back when they start to get to large. Xenia is really bad about taking over a tank. You are correct in how to place the high light demand corals. If you have a coral that needs a lot of light then you will want to place them up higher in the tank. I am having to do this as I upgrade my 75 to a 120. Ok, I think I have wrote enough :)

[senatormoe31]

Good things happen slow,
bad things happen when we rush.
Patience will take you farther than the buck many times.
and finally, someone once commented in a LFS that,

The only thing two reef keepers can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong.
AMEN.

[senatormoe31]

Buy a skimmer that is suited for a tank 2x the size you will use it on.
Then, Don't run carbon constantly.
It pulls out some beneficials along with smell, color, and toxins,
But
remember that nothing is out of your "system" untill the carbon is changed.
Use it for 2-5 day spurts
It will last longer, your supps will last longer, you'll get better results, and guess what,
mo money-mo money, mo money.... for buffer.. hehehe
It is just like a sponge.
It is only as usefull as the pores it has available.
Cloggy cloggerton..

[senatormoe31]

Run a good 20x to 30 or 40 X turnover, depending on tank size.
Flow is your friend much more so than any mechanical filtration or media with the possible exception of Po4 remover.
Recirc those food stuffs untill they become food or skimmer fodder.
hehe

pump up the volume and watch those corals and fish "dance,Dance' bump,bump,ba.
bumpbump, bababa..uh,uh ooooohhhh..

[senatormoe31]

Remember that canisters are designed with the primary purpose of pulling particles from the water column.

Let us not forget that all those beautiful little flowery shaped polyps are for what?

Beuller, beuller? anyone?

Pulling plankton from the water column, for the most part----cool huh.
but if we remove those granted "agreeably unpleasent" particles for asthetic purposes, well it may not kill em but it sure could starve them, causing all kinds of symtoms.

contrlolling nutrients is better than adding them and then trying to fish them back out again.


Food for thought.

[senatormoe31]

T5's are good,
T5's are great.
overdrive them,
don't be late.

[senatormoe31]

T5's are fairly cool, quite light weight, last 12-15 months, come in an amazing variety of flavors/colors and are relatively easy on the wallet.

deep sigh.

[senatormoe31]

T5's are good, T5's are great.
Overdrive them, It's not too late

[senatormoe31]

Most beautiful picture/tank (color and growth wise) I have ever seen was a tank in an issue of Coral Magazine-->
Dec 2006 Vol, 3 Num. 6.

It is a 220 sps and it has a huge turnover rate (40+x), T5's only, skimmer and deep sand bed. That's it.

[senatormoe31]

NOT the only way to go but I know lots of people with lots of smiles that would agree.

[SunDevil95]

Kentanner... I'm really leaning towards a sump... can you give me a ballpark estimate... how much more would I spend doing a sump/fuge system vs. what I would need to be in operation for my tank without (I'm thinking a remora skimmer??? and some powerheads?... I dunno.)

Jeepers... so you think I could actually do the hard corals if I put them high? This is of course, a longer range goal. I really just haven't really thought about fish (but I was advised to consider them now). I just wanted to take some notes. I'm more interested in starting with the corals. It looks like the xenia spread quickly. Since your 75 is close to my 63, (and on a cheap-moderate budget) what skimmers (hang on back and for a sump) would be realistic? How much turnover do you have?

Great information senatormoe31. Thank you. T5's are what I was searching for (a lot of great people helping that decision... thanks everyone!) Of course, when I finally made a decision, a great (actually screaming deal) price in a (1 month old) CF hood gave me a new direction with lighting. Unless I find a super deal that is somewhat similar to the new hood, I start with these. I just have to start on my rock right now. I'm sure I could sell this for practically what I got it for if there's another deal around. That was a question... carbon or no carbon... but I think your advice is great to do it off/on. A deep sand bed? I've heard positives and negatives.

[jeeperrs]

My 75 does not have a sump. I run a #3 and two #2 Koriala power heads. I bought a Turboflotor multi skimmer so I could upgrade, which I am doing now. Also, the turboflotor multi can be used in sump or hang on back. Right now I am running it as a hang on back but once I finish my upgrade it will be in the sump. A friend of mine ran the same model i have on her 220 until she had a very high bioload, then she got a bigger skimmer. I also have a canister filter that I run carbon through all the time. I don't remember how much flow I have but I know it is a lot ha-ha.

If you are interested in building a sump I just built one for the 120 I am setting up. I bought a 40 breeder on sale for 60 bucks, you can find one cheaper used if you look long enough. All the glass ran me 24 bucks, that is cut and sanded. All that was left is the pump and plumbing stuff. I bought a used tank so I did not have to buy all the extras except for the return pump. I am running a mag-drive 12 for my return. You can click on my little red house to see what my sump looks like. The bad thing about DIY is that it does not look as pretty as something you would buy. However it cost me about 1/4 as much as buying one that is pre-assembled.

The depth of water is what stops most of the light. That is why when you have a 20 gallon tank you don't need as much water as a 300 gallon tank. So, if you have coral up high the light will not have to travel through the tough water as far. The shorter the distance the stronger the light. I am not saying you will want power compacts but you won't need a 250 watt MH or 6 tubes of T5s if you are going to have them 4 inches from the top of the water. My two biggest expenses were my lights and my skimmer. If I had to do it over again, they would still be my biggest expense :)

[Kentanner11]

It depends on the size of your stand, I havent made a tank out of acrylic/ or glass but if something goes wrong you need to start over. Here is the question of money or time. You can buy a pre-built tank, *more money* ( I use a 29g. for my sump, and a 10g for my fuge) or you might be able to build your own sump and have it fit like a glove in your stand and get more gal. out of it. but this takes *more time*

I like a sump cause all your stuff can be hidden in there rather than in your tank. (heaters, skimmers, reactors. etc.)
If you didnt have a sump than you would need to have a hang on the back skimmer, ( I would use a hang on the back fuge), power filter/canister.
The thing is that with the more thing that are hanging on the back the harder it is to get to it for mantience and your tank will have to be farther from the wall.

[SunDevil95]

I'm a little confused... you can have a refugium/skimmer that hangs off of the back? Are they both part of one, or two separates things?

I like the idea of an interchangable skimmer. I might have to look to the future. Are hang on the back skimmers loud?

Went to your thread. Nice woodworking! Would you do anything differently? Won't your refugium be blown to bits with the flow or are you going to fill it with a lot of rock? The refugium needs lighting right?

[SunDevil95]

Kentanner... how's your skimmer from jugs project going? Is there a thread/pics?

[jeeperrs]

Kentanner is right about the issues of having lots of things hang off the back. The refugium is often separate from the skimmer. I have seen some refugiums with a skimmer built into it but the quality of the skimmer is very poor. The hang on back refugiums are good in that the pods will not die by the pressure of the return pumps, an issue you have with a refugium under the tank. I had read an article at school talking about how many pods survive the pressure of pumps. The article showed that up to 90% of the pods were killed by the pressure. I didn't believe this prior to the article. If you think about it, you can squish a pod very easy with the pressure of your finger, now just imagine the pressure in a pump pushing 900-1200 gallons of water an hour. Having your refugium above the tank you don't have this problem as gravity will do the work for you.

The noise of the simmer is VERY low. I hear the fans on my lights way more than the skimmer. Keep searching threads on here and you will find a steal of a deal on one. Someone is always having to move, so they are always selling majority if not all the pieces to their tank.

I am not going to have sand in my refugium because of the high flow. I want macro algae and rocks. The high flow will be good for the macro algae I want because it will make the algae spin and get light on all sides for growth. The point of my refugium is to reduce algae in the display tank. That is why I made my bubble box the way I did. I want the high flow to turn and move the algae so I don't have to place a power head in there to do it. Yes, I will have a light above my refugium to make the macro algae grow.

[Kentanner11]

I havent started it yet, hopefully will begin it next week. There was a thread on the DIY section that I got my inspiration from, but I am just using some DIY venturis and old powerheads laying around.

[SunDevil95]

Thanks! Tell me if this is a sound idea. I'm pretty much sold on building a sump/fuge. I was thinking I could build one from a 20 Long or 29 tank. How much physical space should be planned for the skimmer section?

Here's an even CRAZIER idea... will this work?
If it were a 29, could I go right next to the intake, the skimmer, chiller/heater, then return pump section and THEN (here's the crazy part) the fuge part with a wall just a few inches high allowing for water exchange. Here's my crazy thinking... I was also going to make a small QT area (complete separate filtration), and I was going to put lighting over it. I was thinking of planning lighting to cover both the fuge & QT. Although the flow wouldn't go through the fuge before it returned, a low wall would have to exchange a good deal of water AND it would be unaffected by pressure.

[Kentanner11]

It depends on the skimmer you buy, some have different requirements on the heighth of water, and area it will fit in.

[SunDevil95]

Fogive me... still learning... How much flow should go through the sump in a reef system? For instance in the 63 aiming for 20x turnover the aim is 1260gph. Would that be too much? What about 2700gph?

Or (as advised 20x flow) was the advice for total flow factoring in, lets say, powerheads? If this is the case, what flow rate should go through the sump?

[Kentanner11]

you want ( what i would use) is 20 X turn over in the tank, (powerheads CL) and you want 10-15 turn over rate in the sump. so you would want to have 630-945 gph going through your sump I would maby go 700gph, but that does seem a little high, but than again.

[senatormoe31]

I good rule of thumb that I heard at a chicago conference was that 3x the tank volume per hour at a min. for flow through the sump. more if ness.

[SunDevil95]

I see... things are making a little more sense now. Just to re-iterate:

Following Kentanner's advice: as far as the sump pump goes, I'll be searching for 600 to 1000gph range category (give or take) and I'll start looking for a 700+gph powerhead to aim for the 20x (or more) rate for the 63gal tank.

Following senatormoe31's advice: I should be searching for at least a 189gph (3x) at a minimum (at least its a general target... I read ya), and therefore a 1000gph powerhead in the tank to be close (smidgen under)to the 20x rate.

Putting both of your inputs together... I should look for ABOUT a 400gph sump pump (I'll look for 500 because of the pumping agains gravity factor) and I'll look for around a 900gph powerhead which will be around the 20x (1260gph) target. Are these pretty sound?

Thank you for your help by the way! Any other great advice?

[Kentanner11]

heres a tip, you wouldnt want a 900 or 1000 gph powerhead cause the poor fish will be blown against the side of the tank. you would want to have more than one pointed in all different directions to add up to 900 or 1000 gph.

[SunDevil95]

What do you think about melevsreef's closed loop idea at: http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html with DRILLING holes in the bottom. A 1000GPH with 2 returns that split into 4 returns perhaps is approx 250GPH per return spicket (I'm sure there's a name for this...).

I'm going to draw a picture of some of the crazy ideas that I'm dreaming up, and then could you pick at it as to what I might want to change, rearrange, make simpler, or give up on???

For instance... I think I'm going to drill 4 holes... all sorta close to one another... 3 returns and 1 larger drain. As I just said this out in writing for the 1st time, it sounds like a bad idea. There's probably a simpler choice. I was trying to hide everything, but perhaps this is not possible...

Update on tank progression...
Thanks to sidewinder Scott (and was it Erin?- class act all the way!) I've aquired about 83lbs of liverock. My goal was to aquire at LEAST 50lbs this weekend so that I could start cycling my deadrock (DR). The sundried DR had been soaked in a high saltwater mix for 2 days. I then put into a tub with good circulation and 1.024 water for 2 days. With the LR aquired today, I also added an old skilter to each of the tubs, along with 260W of CF lighting above. Added water and is now at .022 Is there anything that I should add/do more? Oh, and of course, I have the tank. Am I forgetting anything?

Goals now are:
-- Build a stand/canopy
-- Determine a skimmer (ASM G2 is the leading recommendation for this 63gal)
-- Find pumps/powerheads (1 for sump + other(s) for target 1300gph+ flow)
-- Build a sump/fuge to save some $ (possibly a 29 for sump/fuge/QT all together)

Are there any things that I'm missing out on that I should be doing?

[SunDevil95]

Can't figure out how to post a pic... Read it a few times... can't seem to find "Upload Photos" option.

[jeeperrs]

You don't want one big powerhead. Having several allows you to point them in different directions causing random flow through the tank. In my 120 (I finally have it up and running) I have two #3 and two #2 Koralia which totals 2,900 gph. I also have dual overflows that run 600 gph each, making a total 4,100 gph. Each overflow has two return tubes, so a total of 4. My sump is a 40 gallon tank with a refugium, skimmer, and return section. I am running a Mag 12 since it has a maximum 1200 gph. You don't want your return pump to be greater than what your overflow system can handle. Yes, you will have some head loss but you are only going to have 2-3 feet of head loss most likely.

For the overflow system you probably don't want a single drain that will handle 1000 ghp because it sounds risky to me lol. That would mean your entire tank you empty in about 17 seconds through just the drain. My other main reason for not having your drain so big is that if engineers who design aquariums are not putting a drain that big in smaller tanks, you shouldn't either lol. If you do want more flow you should probably make two overflows, you will also get better water circulation and your fish won't be sucked to the drain ha-ha.

With all that said I would stick to one overflow and target 500-600 gph through that. This is about the max you will find sold by companies who have engineers designing the tanks. Then put a couple powerheads in there to add a little more flow where you want it.

To post a picture get an account on photobucket.com. You will copy the code on the line "HTML tag" and paste it in your reply. It is pretty simple and you can upload a lot of pictures on there.

[SunDevil95]

Thanks jeepers... I read this really quickly because I've got to run. Its something I need to think about a little more deeply... I'll be back later tonight.

Okay... so I couldn't figure out a way to add a picture... so I spent all morning drawing on excell. All of this is just a crazy idea right now. Please tell me if this will work for this 63G acrylic tank:

- There's 4 holes drilled in the overflow 1 large drain / 3 returns
1 return is from the sump and with return director low and expelling front
2 returns are from closed loop with a SCWD wavemaker that have 2 outlets (high & low)
- The closed loop pump (melev's reef) draws right from the drain (Is this okay?) as the water is flowing to the sump
- The fuge is located right next to the quarantine tank (because I wanted a smaller light)
Although the water will not be flowing over the fuge, a low glass will hold in sand but allow water/nutrient transfer???

[Kentanner11]

Wow never seen anyone draw on excel why not just use paint? lol
A few comments I have, I wouldnt put the QT under the stand cause
a) you really want to be able to see all of the fish/coral
b) I think that being in a stand might stress out the fish.
I would just make your fuge bigger, and have a QT that sits next to your tank, temp.
CL
I am kindof doing what your doing, except
all of my water is going down into the sump through the overflow (I cant/chose not to drill my tank) and then T off into the fuge then sump. from there a return pump pumps water out of my sump and through 4 loc-line returns that can be adjusted in any direction that I want.

[jeeperrs]

I think it all looks good but the QT. The point of the QT is to remove new fish, corals, inverts, and sick fish from the water column which houses your other fish and coral. If you have a sick fish you can't use any medications on them the way you have the QT set up. If the medication moved to your sump you may kill all your corals and inverts. I think Kent is right on having the QT outside and away from your tank.

[Kentanner11]

Oh, also you can have several "QT" around the house. aka nano's! (that my secret plan, shhhh. dont tell)

[OneDayMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10383071#post10383071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SunDevil95

Thank you for your help by the way! Any other great advice?

What's the rush. I just moved my livestock from my hastily set up 72G to a 30G while I prepare the system.

My Mistakes:
1. I didn't buy a reef-ready 72G Bow, so I have no built in overflow - bad
2. I didn't have enough room behind the aquarium to add an overflow or a hang on fuge if I wanted.
3. The 72 Bow is tough to fit equipment underneath, and, again, I didn't have room behind the tank
4. I didn't know that painting the back of the tank was a great idea
5. I didn't have the money together to do 72 G correctly (new baby and all)
6. I hadn't even considered what happens to PH / Alk with top off water
7. I wanted better lighting, probably MH/T5 but I didn't have room for a chiller and 150s just don't seem to be the right choicein MH for me.

Anyway, I didn't kill anything. In fact, the stuff I had was doing great and still is in the smaller tank with a bigger skimmer. It's just that if I wanted to move on, I didn't want to be stuck with what's I had.

1. I've rearranged my office in order to allow for a walking space behind the aquariums.
2. I've placed both aquariums next to each other so that I can transfer from the QT easily (which the 30 will be when the 72 is running)

Since I started doing this a few months ago, I haven't gone more than 2 weeks without a 30% or more water change with ro/di water. That requires effort and time. I test my parameters constantly. That requires effort and time. I study this forum and others, speak with knowledgeable people and keep up to date on options for my reef system.

The most important piece of advice I can give you is to slow the heck down. What, it's been 5 days and you think you've got the "perfect" cost-effective system worked out? I hate to burst your bubble, but that's just not how it works. This hobby is full of successful intelligent people. If you are as far ahead of the curve as your posts make me believe you think you are, you must be verging on the intelligence of Einstein with the work ethic of Paul Bunyan or using some substance that makes you believe that's exactly who you are.

[SunDevil95]

Heheh! I forgot to add that little piece of information... the QT is actually COMPLETELY walled off from the actual sump by glass and by use of the skilter (I know skilters are archaic now... but I have 2 laying around), I can skim and filter this separate. Although I would like to buy another tank, I fret to think of buying another... my wife would kill me, and we have almost no space to really put it. The great part is that I could piggyback on the lighting for the fuge and everything will be in one place. My idea was to get a 29 tank, with (ballpark estimations of this 30.5"x12.5"x18.75"). First 9" for skimmer (footprint avg) and drain. The next 5" for baffles (14" total), 4" for pump return (18" total), 4" for fuge (22" total), and 9.5" for QT (=11gal). If this doesn't work, I'd buy a 10 gallon tank and put it just next to it anyway. I was thinking a heater or chiller by contact would maintain temp. in the QT.

Kentanner, are you saying that yours is similar but you have a T in the drain that diverts some water to the sump and some to the fuge? For all of the returns I was planning on loc-line tubing. One return is from the pump from the sump (approx 500g) and the other 2 which branch to 4 loc lines with the SCWD wavemaker (Idea adapted from melev's reef pages).

Really important needed answers:
- Are those 4 holes (1 drain, about 2" from each other going to be too many holes) in one general area?
- Is the SCWD wavemaker idea too complicated... at which the answer would be to just get a few powerheads.
- If the wavemaker idea isn't too complicated, can I tap into the drain from the overflow to draw water from?

The picture (excell attachment few replies above), was interesting to draw. I do feel like I should explain myself... as a teacher who uses macs, they do not have paint (or perhaps they do but are not on school computers). I sometimes have to make diagrams and instead of making copies of hand drawn things, for some stupid AR reason, I have to make "perfect" computer generated ones for my students. I've actually become quicker at doing things like than you might think. When I said all morning, I actually meant about 20 minutes. Heheh!!! It is pretty funny though!!!

[SunDevil95]

Hi OneDayMatt and All!

The only real rush is that I hope to have most things going by Thanksgiving (family and guests to be in). Also in 2 weeks, I'll be teaching school, but right now, I have ALL DAY to learn and build things. I love to build things! From the 1st thread, my timeline has moved back about 2 weeks, but I think it's reasonable. Here's the details of things I need to do. I'm using this thread as a diary myself. I respect your advice, so please tell me EXACTLY where I am or might be going wrong. Also, I'm going mainly off the advice 4 LFS employee's, 2-3 mentors, and about 5 others who have really taken the time to advise me. Seriously, please don't just say that I'm going too fast... please tell me WHERE and HOW I am going too fast. I'm NOT new to reefkeeping, but I'm VERY new to doing it in this capacity. I really do NEED and I will listen to your advice... (please know that I am trying to be humble and I only am writing the follwing so that you can advise me better... not to combat you)

DONE
1) Live rock being cycled in bins
- Status: I got more than expected and very well cured liverock for an unbeatable price. It is in tubs right now with old skilters and plenty of flow under 260W of light. The 45 DeadR that I have is insignificant right now, because I'm comfortable with the 83lbs of LR to start, and will from now be considered base rock. Daily water tests are pretty much 0. Alk / Ph / Nitrites / Nitrates at this time.

TO BE DONE
1) Build a stand/hood (Goal: 7/28- but okay without until 8/4 deadline)
- Status: After looking at about 8 stores, online, and such, we've developed a design that is A) FUNCTIONAL to the specifications of the tank and sump and B) FORM that my wife wants. This should be done by next weekend.
2) Drill & Plumbing (Goal: 7/26)
- Status: Not sure where overflows will be... corners or middle... but stand is built to either choice. Need to attach overflow. (2 days?) Also would like to pondfoam back (opaque black) wall and overflow (another 2 days?). Plumbing... just acquring pieces like bulkheads, piping, ball valves, and others needed for unglued visual check... officially (permanently glued) put together when sump is assembled.
3) Build sump/fuge/QT (Goal: 8/3)
- Status: Aquiring 29g tank sump. Acquiring skimmer. Have worked with glass before. Studying heights/measurements now. Separate QT space avail but would like an all-in-one if possible. Learning a lot of needs/necessities.
4) Test of all equiptment and fill tank (Goal: 8/4)
5) Livesand bed installed, aquascaping LR, QT 2 damsels (Goal: 8/5)

Note: Teachers report 8/6 (Summer is over!) but no kids... so nights are free + 1 more weekend. Will be REALLY busy for next month or so. 20% water changes every 2 weeks.

6) Water stabilized by 8/25 and add cleaner crew & 2 QT'd damsels and 1st 20% water change
7) Frequent water checks for 2 weeks (9/8) if okay then add a few softies/mushrooms and possibly a fish or two to QT
8) Every 3 weeks (synchronized with 3 weeks recommended in QT) schedule possible:
- Provided water is stable some additions: (9/29- add and damsels donated back to store) / (10/20) / (10/10- 2 weeks prior to thanksgiving)

Projected goals by Thanksgiving: Cleaner crew working awesome, cycled rock with good coraline algae growing, Pondfoam with coraline algae, 6-8 soft corals, 6-8 fish, and a healthy fuge thriving.

Thank you for posting your mistakes. I hope to learn from them, but please help me understand more about these corresponding to your learning:
1) Yes I have to build my overflow. I plan to drill acrylic tank myself. Not a lot of anxiety because I've worked with plastics and glass before. Are there worries for overflows that you experienced? or things I need to keep a heads up on?
2) Nothing should be on the back hopefully. Wife wanted the sump primarily to hide all the equiptment. (No argument from me, for all of the other benefits). We are planning the stand build to seat a 90gal just in case we decide to upgrade so there's plenty of back space. As it is right now, there is enough room to place a (Seclone pro is it?) hang on skimmer if absolutely necessary. Would you recommend hang on the back fuges over sump fuges?
3) The stand actually slants in (inspired by Asian furniture- I'm Japanese) and there is more room at the base than there is at tank level. A lot can fit in htere.
4) Why is painting the back of the tank a good idea? My back wall should be foam. Will that be okay?
5) I'm a school teacher in the 48th worst teacher pay state. I have a 3 year old... So pretty much, I never have money. But seriously, I will research to get the best VALUE with the best HEALTH of my reef being the 1st priority. I realze that if I can't find deals that I may have to pony up some $ for some of the things that I NEED. There's actually a good threshold of where used is not worth the risk of new. Ex: I'm looking for a good skimmer- I want it at 60% below the lowest new price I can find new. If its 50% I might if I trust it, but anything less of a value, I'll probably buy new. The rush right now is to learn about recommendations so I know what to look for. This is WAY TOO DEBATED though for me to make any sense out of it. I just figure (if I HAD to at the worst) that I at least need one rated for 150gal which will be over 250% of the tank (and I don't plan on a lot of fish anyway.
6) Okay... Here's where I have a lot to learn. In my old 20 reef, there were frequent water top offs, and water changes. What have you learned, that you would share about water PH and Alk? This 63 is 3x the tank that I was used to. There will be a learning curve here for me. A sump is new for me. I've heard that more water is actually easier, but it is the unknown at this point. PLEASE share!!!
7) Everyone says that I will want more lights (halides) for larger corals, but I know I want to master soft corals & mushrooms before I move up and better lighting. I really am perfectly happy with softies, despite what people say. I might dabble, but I think 260 CF lighing will be suffice if I put them up high. A chiller is out of the question right now budget wise. T5's are what I wanted, but a deal came up, and I actually came out with more wattage than what I was planning with T5's. I wanted to utilize more spectrum with a T5, but oh well... I can always add one.

I'm far from Einstein, I'll assure you that. But I have 3 years experience. Right now, I'm not Paul Bunyan, but I'm a stay-at-home dad with at least an average of 6 hours of time to dedicate to learning (3 of which, Logan is down for a nap). I have been a little obsessed for the past week, I'll admit. I know starting tomorrow, I begin teacher preparation mode... and my time will dwindle slowly until school starts and then time will be precious as I teach, coach, be a dad, a husband, and a reefer!

But seriously, what are some things that I need to worry about? I'm nervous and excited at the same time. I liken it to the kid who has driven a hand-me-down car for all of his life, and now putting together a dream sports car. I don't plan on driving too fast, and I don't want to be out of control, but I still know how to drive. Am I just not getting it (slowing down)?

Expendatures (Projected)
$100 63gal acrylic undrilled aquarium
$140 Corallife CF 260W
$180 83lbs of Cured Fiji LiveRock
($150) Stand / Canopy Build
($50) Sump/Fuge/QT Build
($75) Tank readiness including plumbing
($150) Skimmer
($200) Pumps/Powerheads (Goal 20x/h+)
($75) Substrate (Live Sand? DSB)
($50) Cleaning Crew

Additionals that I have already:
40lbs of 60lb tub of Instant Ocean
2 skilters (skimmer/filter)
1 hang on the back powerhead filter
1 300gph powerhead
2 120gph powerheads
Test kit Alk / Ph / Nitrites / Nitrates
Bottle of buffer
Bag of carbon
Specific Gravity Test
2 Thermomometers






What's the rush. I just moved my livestock from my hastily set up 72G to a 30G while I prepare the system.

My Mistakes:
1. I didn't buy a reef-ready 72G Bow, so I have no built in overflow - bad
2. I didn't have enough room behind the aquarium to add an overflow or a hang on fuge if I wanted.
3. The 72 Bow is tough to fit equipment underneath, and, again, I didn't have room behind the tank
4. I didn't know that painting the back of the tank was a great idea
5. I didn't have the money together to do 72 G correctly (new baby and all)
6. I hadn't even considered what happens to PH / Alk with top off water
7. I wanted better lighting, probably MH/T5 but I didn't have room for a chiller and 150s just don't seem to be the right choicein MH for me.


Anyway, I didn't kill anything. In fact, the stuff I had was doing great and still is in the smaller tank with a bigger skimmer. It's just that if I wanted to move on, I didn't want to be stuck with what's I had.

1. I've rearranged my office in order to allow for a walking space behind the aquariums.
2. I've placed both aquariums next to each other so that I can transfer from the QT easily (which the 30 will be when the 72 is running)

Since I started doing this a few months ago, I haven't gone more than 2 weeks without a 30% or more water change with ro/di water. That requires effort and time. I test my parameters constantly. That requires effort and time. I study this forum and others, speak with knowledgeable people and keep up to date on options for my reef system.

The most important piece of advice I can give you is to slow the heck down. What, it's been 5 days and you think you've got the "perfect" cost-effective system worked out? I hate to burst your bubble, but that's just not how it works. This hobby is full of successful intelligent people. If you are as far ahead of the curve as your posts make me believe you think you are, you must be verging on the intelligence of Einstein with the work ethic of Paul Bunyan or using some substance that makes you believe that's exactly who you are.

Hobby Experience: Long enough to take things slowly

[SunDevil95]

By the way... if I drill these 4 holes behind the overflow, there will be one big drain (calculating necessity) and from the top view, at 3 and 9 o'clock view about 2" from the drain, and at the 6 o'clock will be the sump return hole

[OneDayMatt]

Well, I think the Damsels are a mistake. You won't want them in there when you get the fish you really would like.

The 260 W coralife CF is fine for softies, I have one that was on my 72. However, buyer beware the bulbs need to be replaced every 6 mos. Also, individual parabolic reflectors are the key to the T5's. The CF fixture has one large reflector for all of the bulbs. Trust me, I've had to take it out to replace the ballast only to find out later that the ballast worked but some of its circuitry was loose. By the way, I've got Porite an SPS coral that happened to be on a mushroom rock I bought growing just fine under a 96W coralife PC fixture on my 30G.

As far as skimmers go, man, I have gone through a ton of ideas about the skimmer for my 72. I'm leaning towards the Bermuda BPS 3C (http://www.bermudaaquatics.com/3C.htm). I've considered many options and I've got a good space behind my system to put in pretty much anything reasonable. I considered the Tunze 9015, but one look at the Tunze forum and I saw that they weren't as reliable or simple as their slick packaging might imply from actual owners needing parts and having trouble getting foam. Hell, I run a Prizm Pro (DON'T GET THE REGULAR PRIZM) on my 30G and have 0 problems with it. It produces a substantial amount of stinky skimmate. I've also heard of several people modding skimmers, even the hallowed Euro Reef skimmers. If I'm paying upwards of $600 for a skimmer on a 72G aquarium , that thing shouldn't need any mods at all. Since I'm waiting to purchase, I'm in good shape though. I'm also considering one of the AETech ETSS skimmers or the Precision Marine Bullet 1. I'm not very interested in HOB skimmers as they (from personal experience) can be a bit of a pain to adjust because of evaporation.

As far as dKH and calcium stability, I use kent products. 1. Liquid Calcium 2. Pro dKH. My 72 will probably run a calc reactor, but not until the stock level is enough to need it. If you top off without using something like these two products, life will be tough. The PH of pro dKH is extremely high, follow the instructions on the bottle.

I'm not using any substrate at all. That has always been the source of cyano and diatom blooms, and those are things I just don't want in my system. They go away, but they annoy me. Live rock and plain glass are fine with me.

So, you're using foam on the back of the aquarium for a "natural" look. I'm painting because I want a nice look before the coraline has covered the back completely. I've always liked the gloss black look on the back of reef aquariums. I've got black backgrounds behind them right now.

As far as your clean-up crew goes, stay away from anything but the tiny blue-legged hermits. I've found the red-legged varieties either becoming too aggressive or feasting on my Galexia and Porite at night.

When it comes to flow, yes, flow is important but so is heat. Try to keep as much heat out of the system as possible. Even with PCs, tanks can get toasty in a hurry, especially in a warm environment like Phoenix. You'll probably have a ton more evaporation that I do as well since Houston has fairly high humidity in comparison to PHX.

Lastly, I'm sure you know this, but always keep fresh RO/DI water on hand as you'll need it for top off and water evaporates quickly on tanks with large surface area.

[random_ryan]

I would do corner over flows. becouse center overflo''s are a pain in the rear to work with.


I sometimes wonder if I am helping anyone... lol ... becouse 1/2 the time my answers are short and simple.

[jeeperrs]

I wanted to let you know that on All glass aquariums overflow, the drain is once inch in diameter and the return is 3/4 inch. This can only handle up to 600 gallons. I am telling you this because if you are making one "big" drain hole it will have to be very big if you are still trying for more than 600 gph out of one drain. Once you get it set up take some pics and let us see it :)

[SunDevil95]

Thanks ODM, RR, & J!
The advice that I've had has been great! Back in the day, damsels were the way to go to start up the tank and to make sure there's no spikes that do-in more expensive fish. Then of course, keep them or donate them back.
I'm planning to keep all of the corals that I initially get in the middle to upper areas of the tank until I get comfortable with the lights. Congrats on the porite score, and it sounds like it's doing good! I think I got a pretty good deal on lights, but I did want T5's, and I think I want to get a handle on things before I jump into halides... I'm a little intimidated.
Thanks for the recommendations for skimmers. The way I'm playing it is I'm looking for a few matches in recs. and then I'm researching. Everyone seems to be partial to theirs and then talks smack about ALL others. I'm learning though. Your list ODM was probably the best so far. Thanks, I'll go check them out.
Water quality, I've got to read up on it. After I thought about it, my last tank had a few fish, a lot of crabs and snails, and a few softies. Basically, I looked at a lot of rock the entire time. I'm planning on a lot more corals this time (collected over a long period of time) around so I'll keep the reactor high on the list.
I can't personally not do a substrate. I like the look. I had a bad cyano storm at the end and with the flood in the house, I lost, but it doesn't change my preference. How deep does a DSB start at???
I don't know, but when I saw sidewinder's wall, I was amazed, so I can't see not doing a 'natural look'. I do not know of the issues that it may bring up though... only the good things. Are there any problems? Oh, and the problem of it looking weird until some coraline algae starts building up. How long do you think that will take?
Hmmm... you just taught me a great lesson. It seems as if in the last tank I did occasionally find some blue legs from time to time... and furthermore they seemed to become scare from time to time... blue legged hermits it is then!
Heat!?! In the house or in the water? Just kidding. I'm thinking that these fish are going to have a better climate than me. Any suggestions for pumps that are great about heat?
RR! your help is appreciated. As a newbie to having overflows, how often am I going to need to get in there to maintain it? I was figuring about every other month.
Jeepers... I scrapped the 1 drain idea. Now there will be 3 holes 1 drain, 2 returns in the middle of the tank, and 1 drain and 1 return from the sump behind the overflow. I've taken some pics, but I need to get to photobucket and learn how to put them on here.

[OneDayMatt]

About the Ca reactor, I'd look into a 2 part solution setup if I were you. That's what I'll be doing. It's less expensive and easier to avoid horrible accidents according the thread of the month on RK (reef keeping online magazine, associated with this site)

[SunDevil95]

I'm not sure that I'm venturing to go to the Ca reactor territory. Supplements are suffice right?