Most profitable frags?

[DD]

I am currently setting up a small prop system in my basement. It will consist of 9 60 gallon tubs. Each system will be 2 tubs plumbed together with a 60 gallon sump. As i visualize this operation and the cost associated with it i started to think.How can i make my money back the quickest. I would love to frag and grow acros all day but except for the hardcore hobbiest i am not sure if the average aquarist really would buy them. I really think that softies and mushrooms and some LPS are more profitable.Most LFS would buy locally grown corals if they would sell them consistently. I think for every person that buys an acro there are two or three or more that buy mushrooms, leathers or star polyps. Most people really don't take reef keeping as serious as myself and most on this board. Spending the money on 400 watt halides and a calcium reactor seems crazy when they can keep simpler animals under PC'S and not have to really worry that much about Calcium save for some liquid additives.Also from the propigation point of view I can grow most of these animals under PC'S and save alot on electricity; maximizing my profit. As i surf the net looking at coral sites it seems most concentrate on SPS. The LPS and softy propigation market really does not have the presense that the SPS segment has on the net. It may but i have not really seen it yet; i will keep looking though. I just feel that the average hobbiest does not have the desire or financial commitment to keep SPS. Then again most average hobbiest don't buy on the net. The advanced hobbiest's are the ones buying SPS and ordering off the net so i guess you have to target your market.There is obviously more to this than i have posted but i thought i would get the ball rolling. What are your opinions on the most profitable fragable corals.Why are they profitable? Any advice or opinions are apprreciated

[griss]

DD,

The LFS in my area quite often tell me they have no need of SPS frags at the time. Especially SPS that are purple or brown, they just have too many of them in stock all the time.

OTOH, they will ALWAYS take pulsing Xenia frags from me. I also, as you mentioned, have never been refused when trading in mushrooms, zooanthids, leathers, LPS, etc.

Here is St Louis we have a fair amount of people who keep SPS, but many many more who keep only softies and LPS.

HTH,

Griss

[Heavenly Damsel]

Most new reefers want the easier to keep corals like mushrooms, leathers, polyps and xenia. Those would be the most likely suggestions. I look for color.....too many things out there that are tan.

Most LFS are also looking for tank raised bangaii cardinals and pajama cardinals. What they are getting from wholesalers have a poor survival rate. Just a thought.

Have you read Anthony Calfo's book yet?

[ReeferMac]

Ricordea are quite popular, colorful, and hardy. They fetch a premium on the 'net too, but you could prolly make some scratch w/ them at the LFS as well. Hard part is getting them to split. They're slow growers.

- Mac

[DD]

Alot of good points. I have been thinking about this and really think the hobby in general is made up of people who are not interested in the animals they just want something that is different or that looks neat! Thats not a bad thing but you have to figure out what market to target.I would bet for every ultra wild set up there is five systems with standard NO lighting, a canister filter and a Bak pak. Fish would be a good product but the time and effort it takes to rear Banggai's makes it a losing deal. No store would pay more than $7 for a tank raised Banggai. I have wholesale price list and most wild cardinals are between $4-6. Most customers don't care about captive raised, again because they are not interested in the animals like the hardcore hobbiest.As i try to make a venture in the industry the cold reality starts to hit me when i start to run numbers and talk to people. I realize what i would buy for a higher price in a store the majority of the hobbiest's would not.Even if educated why tank raised is better most people would still buy a wild clown down the street from me for $12 instead of a tank raised clown for $30. Same is true for corals If a LFS can buy a wild mushroom rock for $13 why would they want my captive grown rock for $20? Ricordiea is an awsome product but again wholesale it is like $15. I would have to chargwe $30 to make up for water and electricity. The only upside that may hook the LFS as customers is that i am in town and the livestock will be traveling less and they can reach me for any problems or requests. I also can garuntee that it is all healthy when they recieve it.I am doing this for profit not for fun or an extension of my hobby so i have to be realistic and honest with myself and find the ways and the species where i can make the most profit and still compete with wild stock.

[ReeferMac]

I am doing this for profit not for fun or an extension of my hobby so i have to be realistic and honest with myself and find the ways and the species where i can make the most profit and still compete with wild stock.


LOL!!!!

DOn't take this the wrong way or anything, but... Stop now, save yourself the headache. I don't think it's possible to make a profit doing what you're talking about.
Best bet might be to run some idea's by Brian Conger or someone like that, see how they're doing. I just am a pessimistic SOB, and really don't think this is the way for you to make a nest-egg to retire on.

- Mac

[DD]

I should rephrase that a little. I am doing it for profit but will love what i am doing. I a not going to quit my day job but i would like to make enough to pay the bills and make just alittle to expand slowly.I would like to quit my day job eventually though. Propigation is in the early stages and with the looming MAC certifications and possible collection bans it maybe very profitable one day when most wild caught specimans are not availible. I have been thinking about a retail store that also farms coral and sells it in the store and online. The same for drygoods. The corals i think i might try are mushrooms and most of the polyps. Caulestra (trumpet coral) and most soft leathers. I think most of these would sell quite easily. Who is Brian Conger?

[fraggintime]

If you add up the electric bills,chemical bills,saltwater bills,ro maintenence bills and on top of that your time,frustration.
Then the web site bills and the time to answer emails send pictures deal with people from 1 frag to 100 frags.
You need shipping bags ice packs heatpacs boxes styro and on and on

Its like a full time job and your coral grow slow relative to your sales.Break 8 pieces and then wait 8 months. You also have alot of doa and need to replace or work a deal. In order for people to buy large quanity from you you have to have so many varied colorful "rare" species.Everyone can get the montipora caps
digitata etc. Most of your puple tip acros are everywhere.

If I were to start again I would get the rare stuff(purple capricornis,purple formosa,tortuosa,tonga purple frilly mushrooms
rose bta and stay one step ahead by getting friendly with some of the distributor in Ca..But even with some of the good stuff
you can only break 8-10 before your out for 8 months

I now sell xenia to my lfs and rose bta locally and I do alot of trading. When I prune I sell some but I have shut down my
grow out tanks. If I were independently wealthy I would do it,no other way...Or if one day no more corals are allowed that would be a good time to start again.fwiw

[DD]

Fraggintime; I could'nt agree more! I have run the numbers and to be succesful it would take insanely large numbers of coral sales every month. This is why business planning is so important. I am now leaning more towards retail with a small prop operation in the back to maximize store profits and offer something different than what we have up here now. Now i have to find the balls to do it.Anybody fragging courage :D

[Ken2001]

Xenia are the most profitable, hands down. Nothing grows faster, and there's always a demand for pulsing xenia. The only problem with concentrating on them is that they're so easy that other hobbiests will have no problem doing the same. If you've got a thriving reefer community in your area, you'll have too much competition. Also, unless there's a whole lot of LFS in your area willing to buy, you'll run up against the fact that there just won't be enough outlet for your product. The LFS' I trade to (note, I trade, not sell -- xenia are just a way for me to be able to get the fish and SPS I want) are also always demanding mushrooms, polyps, and colt. However, these simply don't grow as quickly as xenia, so I don't really focus on them.

[Schism]

Xenia are the most profitable, hands down.
I'm gonna have to disagree with this wholeheartedly. There is not always a demand for it, in fact I cannot get rid of the sh.. It wouldn't be profitable at all online, considering not many xenia customers will purchase corals online, as it is often a beginners coral, as well as the fact being that xenia ships very poorly.

I would skip the xenia as you will probably end up with too much of it. OTOH xenia would be great to use in your fuge, or sump as nutrient export, and the occasional frag when someone desires it.

As for the lack of presence of softies on the net, I believe there are a few reasons for this. The people on the net are often SPS keepers, ie all the SPS sites. These sights sell these corals for a hefty amount and are very often out of stock. Those of us in that market are on the net for the vast amounts of information. We see the benefits and admire the beauty of sps corals.

That said many novice reefers (like im not :rolleyes: ) aren't on the net. They don't know the information that is here, don't care, think they already know it all, think the LFS knows it all (LOL), and/or can't afford to keep an SPS tank. There are some softy lovers that would be customers, but I seriously doubt enough to make you any substaintial sales amounts. I would assume this is the reason for the lack of softy sites on the net.....

Most of your novices, want just a cheap coral that they can admire for a while. They just hope it will live.

THe exceptions I see are ricrodea, zoo's and some rare shrooms. Generally those are the softies that sps keepers keep though :).
Good luck!

[Carlos]

Xenia depends in your area. I live in IL, near Chicago, and there is no lfs here that will take Xenia from me, even for credit. There, I hear people in LA that constantly take Xenia to the LFS and get pretty good money for it.

Depends on where you are.

Carlos

[Schism]

Yeah that is true, My point was, a propagator wouldn't do well with it, since many LFS don't want it, and it won't ship well .

[Ken2001]

Fair enough. I'm speaking of my own experience, taking xenia to LFS' in my area. Typically, they do best when taken to LFS' that don't have a high number of "hard core" reefer customers. Some of the chain petstores that also do salt-water and a small number of easier corals like softies make good outlets for xenia.

Yes, I agree that xenia do not make good candidates for mail-order. From everything I've read, they do not ship well. This may account for their popularity with LFS' since they may not have a high survivability rate when ordered from suppliers.

I usually move about 6 or 8 xenia a week to LFS' to support my reefer habit. This is the reason I give them space in my tanks, since they are 1) attractive in limitted numbers when they clump together, 2) don't seem to damage the water quality for keeping SPS, like some other softies and leathers do, and 3) are popular at local LFS'.

Of course, like I said earlier, if there are a number of reefers in your area doing the same thing, then there are too much xenia on the market and consequently, no outlet for them.

[scubadude]

If you TRULY want to get involved into this for $$ then you need to get involved into it in every aspect, selling frags will be the most enjoyable part....You need to first build your knowledge base then maybe get a job part time at a LFS, or if your knowledge base is big enough start offering maintenance to LFS with a business card .....alot of LFS's wont do maintenance and will be happy to refer you to their customers providing you prove yourself to them. If you learn how to build sumps and CA reacs, Skimmers, stands, canopys, and yes even tanks then you are hitting on all cylinders in the industry AND learning at the same time....this mind you is NOT for the weak hearted and takes alot of dedication and passion. Remember that this hobby is underfed from Education and that needs to be your foundation IMO W/out it you will shrivel up and die in bizness....do not feel intimidated by others but in the same aspect share your knowledge FREELY dont consider it your business secret. Join clubs be active give more than you take when it comes to the ppl that truly want to learn. Make your money off the ppl that just dont have the time NOT the ppl that are educated in the hobby....The ppl that are educated in the hobby you should bend over backwards for cause they are the ones that will get you where you need to go. Restaurantes, Dr.'s Offices, Hotels, and other big company complexes love to have aquariums or are very open to the idea if you sell it to them (think acrylic NOT glass)....once you sell a whole job you need to be married to it but make good money. Maintenance is a very good money maker....use it to support your farming business and each will compliment each other....these are simple business ethics and guidelines. As far as the most profitable frags in the trade.....hehe Thats easy....its the one that sells the best :P Changes....go with the flow and adapt.

[ccd]

The Xenia thing is a little played out here in San Diego. The orange Montipora capricornis seem to sell the best here. And of all things bright colored zoanthids, go figure. Big colored sps frags are selling well -Pocillapora damacornis (pink and green ones), various Acro sp, etc.

The orange montipora cap has been the best. They flouresce/ glow quite nicely if the are put up close to halides for a few weeks, but are quite hardy. They have pretty much paid for the electric bill in the house and stuff for the tank for the last nine months. That's kind of impressive here in california (people's republic of)

[saltaddict]

I have shipped xenia to several (15-20) people and only had one that didnt live( but it was alive when it arrived just didnt acclimate well) I always ship priority overnight and it is out of my tank less than 20 hrs before it is delivered. Just my .02

[zooqi]

as heavenly said that you should read
Anthony Calfo's book
Is one of the best books that can explain this to you and lots more. He is a member here and has good threads too.
Anthony Calfo's Book Coral Propagation is one of the best books in coral propagation and in top of that he is always available for questions and helping reefers.

[sharkdude]

Pound for pound, my most consistant seller and most profitable has been a green/brown kenya tree (aka capnella species). They are seemingly indestructable, acclimate to a wide variety of conditions and light, grow and attach fast with minimal effort. I have sold 4th generation cuttings (cutting of a cutting of a cutting of a cutting) with no loss of vitality.

Of course I am targetting the new reefer who just wants something to survive and not the rare collector reefer.

Xenia is often popular but 'market' is oversaturated at times.

[logical]

OK, I gotta jump in with my humble experience. I can't go pound for pound, but I go by $$ per square foot. Works well for me since my square feet are very limited.

For me, bright, funky, colorful zoo's are the best. Most people are very pleased to get a tightly packed square inch frag for $15.00.

The math tells you this pulls in $2160.00 a square foot.

That, my friends is some expenisive carpet!

Peace, Bryan

[austinratboy]

Another thing is that a wholesalers list may have cheap prices but you need to consider box charges (~10 -20$/box) plus shippinng which is often the killer when shipping corals in large heavy bags of salt water. I generally double the wholesale price when figuring approx cost/ coral. I have ordered small damsels as part of a larger order and figured a 1$ fish cost 3 $ to get it nto your tank.

[attaboy]

Anyone check his site out lately? He's opening a new 6,000 square foot propagation facility. He certainly has found the secret to making a small fortune if he's expanding like that! Now if I could just figure out what it is...

[Eric Boerner]

Its called chop-shop tactics.

Get a wild colony in and chop it up to hell, bombard it with light for 3 months and sell it as an aquacultured coral frag.

For a $30 wholesale wild colony you can get a dozen $15 to $20 retail market frags for only 3 months energy and chems.

That's where the small fortune is.

Ethical? no. Profitable? damn straight.

[attaboy]

Ok... you touched upon a sensitive area for me. It's pathetic how many online retailers are selling "cultured corals" and all they do is chop them up. I've personally witnessed one of my LFS (Which sells big $$ online) do this. I really hope that's not what funded the 6,000 sq ft. addition:(

[Chin_monster]

Personally, I fail to see the evil of fragging wild colonies and growing out the pieces. First of all you're getting an animals that been in captivity at least a couple months, so they should tolerate our "abuse" a bit better. Secondly, it distributes a given morph/ variety to more people giving it a better chance at success. Thirdly it requires work, money and equipment to accomplish this and these people deserve compension for their efforts.

I've yet to see LFS owner or such drive home in a new Porche or Mercedes, that on the other hand can not be said of many of us in this hobby. Nobody's making bagfulls of money selling us corals and fish. Now what else grows under halides, that's another story.

[DD]

If you start with a Walt Smith mari-cultured colony (Which Dr. Mac usually does) and frag it up their is no environmental impact.what is the hang up?

[Eric Boerner]

Both Walt and Dr. Mac are good folk, don't get me wrong. Walt has done more for the coral industry than most realize.

There are people out there that have other views about profit margins vs. reef ecology however.

Pawning off "Aquacultured" frags, that are simply chopped up wild colonies is shadey in my book. "Aquacultured" in my opinion is a frag that has been cut from a second generation domestic colony at the very least.

There should be no need to cut wild colonies to support the coral farm. It should be a self replicating farm. That isn't whats happening in a large number of chop shops though. It costs too much and takes up too much space to keep mother colonies, rather than buying a crapload of wilds at wholesale and hacking them apart.

[Chin_monster]

Originally posted by Eric Boerner
There should be no need to cut wild colonies to support the coral farm. It should be a self replicating farm. That isn't whats happening in a large number of chop shops though. It costs too much and takes up too much space to keep mother colonies, rather than buying a crapload of wilds at wholesale and hacking them apart.

Until the unfortunate day that the average frag is worth $100 because of an importation ban rather than $12 or so today it just isn't economically feasible in most cases. That day is coming sooner rather than later too. And you can thank the all the eco-wussies in the world, driving around in their F-ing SUVs all the while complaining ecological damages other people are doing. The whole "chopshop" complaint smells of the same stench IMO.

[wildthings44]

Two things from me...
1) Mushrooms and riccordia are the best sellers for me... well the best traiders anyway... I can always find a home for a blue mushroom.
2)Sharkdud, what do you do to your capenellas? I have one that did great for a while and then collapsed (same time my anthia did) it has now come back after I added more oxygen to my tank. I have tried feeding it but it doesn't seem to have the growth that everybody boasts about these things. Now the colt coral above is going bonkers and the frogspawn on the other side of the tank has quadrupled in size... and my mushroom population, well it's starting to take over with the ricordia not far behind! The capenella gets lots of water movement and probably not enough light (though when I bought it and moved it about it wasn't happy until it was in the sand.)
Oh and a third thing... to me if it's "aquacultured" it should be at least a second gen. I did not know that people were just chopping wild corals! I'd say that at least half my corals are from local friends who have clipped thier corals, some of them are 3rd or 4th gen! The whole point of propagating is to not take from the wild! And to advertise wild corals as propagated is false advertising and unethical!

[ThingsReef]

I don't see the problem with distributors fragging corals themselves and selling the frags...capitalism at it's finest, get that middle man in there...If I knew where to order directly from overseas I wouldn't buy from fish stores (of course then I would have to soak up losses and cheats...not for me).

However if someone is fragging corals, keeping them for a couple months and calling them captively propagated??? Bad business ethics!

[anathema]

more distributors would chop up their wild colonies. How many times have you seen an awesome colony get sold at your local store to someone who doesn't seem like they could keep it alive?

I have heard this accusation regarding Dr. Mac before and always thought "good for him".

If they are indeed Walt Smith pieces, they are initially advertised as "aquacultured" at the point that Dr. Mac buys them, and he could sell them as such without snapping off a single frag. Things like this aren't ethical decisions, merely gray areas in an industry that is one big gray area itself.

I personally wish it was less popular to sell colonies, since they usually are harder to make happy than frags, take up more space, and eventually still end up looking unnatural in the tank.

I occasionally buy colonies only to snap off a few frags and resell them. I would like to see Dr. Mac and others continue the practice of fragging colonies and hopefully more stores will see the value of selling frags. One colony is worth $40 at most unless it is super special. At a frag meeting our club recently got 14 frags from a $40 colony we purchased. Sell those for $15 a piece, and we still had the base left!

[racrumrine]

Interesting thread.

Regards,

Roy

[cmcgehee01]

I agree with Sharkdude on the cappanella. Very fast growing and good return here. I can take a 3" diameter colony, frag it into peices 1" long, mount on a small peice of rubble rock that I buy for $1.49 a lb and get 12 - 14 frags that I sell to local stores for $8.50 to $10.00 each within three weeks after fragging. I have not found any other coral that I can do this with. I keep them in my main tank under PC lighting. The LFS says they are one of the fastest moving corals they get and are very happy when I bring in 20 - 25 frags. They sell them for $17.50 to $24.00. Zenia is my next best with small frags going for $6.50 each to LFS. I don't think there is a coral out there that can be fragged and turned into a sellable product any faster or cheaper than this.

[hamburglar]

I have sold about $2000 worth of Xenia frags in the last 12 months. I ship the majority of them. Xenia is easy to ship as long as you pack it right.

For some reason Star Polyp is also a big seller. I cannot keep enough of it to sell online.

As far as making a profit........I'm doing good to actually pay for the equipment, and shipping materials. but, for me it's all fun. And it's paying for a greenhouse that I have always wanted.

[tekknoschtev]

Originally posted by hamburglar
I have sold about $2000 worth of Xenia frags in the last 12 months. I ship the majority of them. Xenia is easy to ship as long as you pack it right.

For some reason Star Polyp is also a big seller. I cannot keep enough of it to sell online.

As far as making a profit........I'm doing good to actually pay for the equipment, and shipping materials. but, for me it's all fun. And it's paying for a greenhouse that I have always wanted.

I've noticed, especially in my area, that Xenia and GSPs sell quite quickly... unfortunately, not such that I have run out. But I've got enough GSP to last me quite a while. $5 frags of each are what I sell and at least the xenia goes fast.

I wish I could say we're even making enough to cover the tank(s) we have running, but out little prop tank is making just enough to buy a new coral for the 150, which, in the end is much cooler in my opinion. Sell some cheaper things (my most expensive frag was a frag of zoas for $15, but everything is between $5 and $10 for what I've sold) and after a good weekend of frag selling, we can venture to the LFS with the more expensive, but really cool frags/colonies of whatever, and pick up one or two. A great way to fill out the 150 which is still looking a little sparse :rolleyes:

I prop for fun, not for profit. I enjoy spreading my corals to the local community, and I like being able to get some newbies off to a good start with some easy corals at a great price like we were able to do.

[BrianPlankis]

I prop for fun also, but if wild coral collection is banned or greatly reduced in the future then doing this for profit might become a reality.

The best I've done is a $5 mushroom to the LFS on a piece of rubble. I'm planning on trying xenia and other softies once I find a LFS willing to buy them.

I wanted to bring up a point from earlier in the thread where I think the thread starter was saying he would stick to PC lighting. Personally I think a frag tank should be VHO or T5, in the long run you get more light for less electricity and less replacement bulbs.

Here is a little calculation I did:
Lets assume a 30 or 40 gallon breeder as your prop tank, so you need either two MH fixtures or 36� long PC, T5 or VHO lights. I used several online places for prices…I know you can get cheaper sets for any combo listed here.

384W PC lights (should replace bulbs every 6 months, lets stretch that to 8 months):
Retro Kit: 4 x 96W + (4 – 10,000K bulbs included): $380
Replace bulbs every 8 months for 3 years: ($30/bulb x 4 bulbs/8 months x 12 mon/year x 3 years) = $540

Total: $920 for 3 years + 8 months (original bulbs) = $20.91/month
Total: $1280 for 5 years + 8 months (original bulbs) = $18.82/month

156W T5 lights (supposedly 18 months before bulbs need replaced):
Retro Kit: 4 x 39W (4 german bulbs and individual reflectors included) - $329
Replacement bulbs: ($27/bulb x 4 bulbs/18 months x 12 x 3) = $216

Total: $545 for three years + 18 months (original bulbs) = $10.09/ month
Total: $689 for five years + 18 months (original bulbs) = $8.83/month

I realize this is less watts than PC, VHO, but couldn’t find 54W for 36�. You could argue 39W T5s are more powerful than 96W PCs…but I won’t go there, so this isn’t the best comparison.

380W VHO lights (12 months for white light):
PFO Retro Kit: $180 + 4 95W 36� bulbs ($80)
Replacement bulbs: ($20/bulb x 4 bulbs/ 12 months x 12 x 3) = 240

Total: $500 for three years + 12 months (original bulbs) = $10.42/month
Total: $660 for five years + 12 months (original bulbs) = $9.17/month

350W SE MH lights (12 months for 10K bulb):
2 – 175W MH retro kit: (2 – ballasts: $160, 2 spider reflectors: $100, 2 XM 10K bulbs: $120): 380
Replacement bulbs: ($59/bulb x 2 bulbs/12 x 12 x 3) = $354

Total: $734 for three years + 12 months (original bulbs) = $15.29/month
Total: $970 for five years + 12 months (original bulbs) = $13.47/month

225 W HD 6500K light bulb (Replace every 6 months):
3 clip on light fixtures with aluminum reflector: $15
3 bulbs to start: $18
Replacement bulbs: ($6/bulb x 3 bulbs/6months x 12 x 3) = $108

Total: $141 for three years + 6 months (original bulbs) = $3.36/month
Total: $213 for five years + 6 months (original bulbs) = 3.23$/month

These calculations don’t include electricity costs as I’m not familiar with how much each one uses. I know MH uses the most. In my experience my PC lights in the past got a LOT hotter than my VHO, so I would think they are using more(generating more heat than VHO), but I simply don’t know!

PC lights can be bought for a steal used, but I think you would be hard pressed to save money over time compared to VHO or T5 with the replacement bulb costs alone. Of course the growth from the different lights really impacts profits, but I think PC lights cause the slowest growth in my experience.

I just thought this was interesting, anyone care to point out flaws in my calculations? I’d like to fix them if I made a mistake.

I threw in the Home Depot lights as a joke, but I am going to try propagating mushrooms under them just to see what happens.

B.

[xdusty6920]

get a big colony of cpative raised indo lords. split them up into several smaller colonys. theyll spit out $25 polyps on a constant basis and ive never heard anyone complain about how they have all these cheap lords and no one who wants them.

[Opcn]

I think the key to sucess may be in reducing you cost, cut water changes down with a DSB (which also grows pods that corals eat) grow yourself some green water and possibly some macroalgeas as well (some macros bring in big bucks) that and build a reactor to disolve some crushed coral sand, that really helps cut down on dosing costs (although you still have to dose something in most cases) oh, and plywood tanks too.