SPS hanging/suspension

[scubadude]

Who is doing it and what kind of success are you having? different growth patterns? different coloration? increase in growth rates? any kind of info you can give on this matter please feel free....also any pics you can post would be nice too.

[Frick-n-Frags]

I hang them over the sides a lot glued to pop bottles or eggcrate shapes or pieces of CD cases. I have two pieces of beige Monti d. swinging in the breeze in my prop tank. They are algae collectors but they grow free form. I like the stuff over the side better, then the snails and crabs can still get to it.

Check out my pics in the "show us your skimmerless pics" thread in the general forum. You can see stuff hanging, like green humilis on a CD case that is plating from 5 little frags, a table Acro hanging from an eggcrate hook and a huge colony of Pocillapora d. on a CD case. All my frogspawn frags are hanging from pop bottles. It went from 8 heads to about 40 now and needs to be fragged again. My torch hated being hung however. I have completely GSP covered pop bottles(well the half in the water, I just cut two big slits and hang it on)

[bgdiving]

Hey scubadude, have you got any pics of that acro that you got from me to susspend? has it healed over the break yet and are you seeing any new axial coralites forming yet? probably still too soon for new branching. That'll be an interesting piece to watch grow out. It'll probably be nothing but a big fluffy round ball of extended polyps. Did you mount the sister frag (actually maybe threy are cousins) conventionaly as a control ? do you have a tenative ID on the acrto yet?

[scubadude]

hehehe....I was gonna post pics anyway. Sorry the first pic is hard because it has a big swing radius...Im testing to see if this is beneficial.

http://www.coralfragz.com/susp/suspa.jpg

http://www.coralfragz.com/susp/suspb.jpg

http://www.coralfragz.com/susp/suspc.jpg

the last two pics are the same coral from your system Brian. It was a couple days after I got the frags from you before I could mount/hang them but there is growth over the break point already :eek1: The 2nd picture is not getting as much light as it may appear to be getting, it is not in the line of fire of the SS either as it may appear. I agree this will be an interesting piece to see the difference in growth patterns. I have already begun planning stages of a whole hanging system incorporated with a standard vertical system utilizing every cubic inch of my aquarium growth space.

[scubadude]

Originally posted by Frick-n-Frags
I hang them over the sides a lot glued to pop bottles or eggcrate shapes or pieces of CD cases. I have two pieces of beige Monti d. swinging in the breeze in my prop tank. They are algae collectors but they grow free form. I like the stuff over the side better, then the snails and crabs can still get to it.

Check out my pics in the "show us your skimmerless pics" thread in the general forum

Sweet DUDE! If you ever have time to take some more pics of your setup I would be greatly appreciative! LMAO Junk tank? Dude thats a JEWEL Tank IMO :) One question....how do you glue the pop bottles or eggcrate to the sides? Im totally in love with your JUNK tank! let me take care of all that junk for you. hehe

[BlAcK_PeRcUlA]

why do people suspend corals?

[Frick-n-Frags]

Rock on Mr scubadude!!!

I believe the theory to suspended corals is that they don't align to a set current flow and therefore supposedly grow in all directions. Typically corals grow with the current and look like plant roots in a stream after a while (at least in my tanks with heinous laminar flow) I have a birdsnest that is actually growing down because the flow comes from the top and flows downward through that coral.

I have all of those things hanging over the side, nothing glued permanently. I snap out the segments in eggcrate to make a plastic hanger. I cut two parallel slits in a plastic pop bottle (I use that peach melba fizzy water from Wal-mart in particular) and then either superglue the frag to the bottle (I have GSP's and BSP's like that) or tie frags to the bottle(frogspawns), or superglue a piece of CD case to the bottle for a sturdier surface for gluing SPS frags. I'll take more specific and detailed pics of fraggenstein's coral torture chamber.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Here is the plate glued to the popbottle with 5 original A. humilis(?gemmifera?) frags that are plating nicely

[Frick-n-Frags]

Here is a closeup of the A. humilis frags

[Frick-n-Frags]

Here is a table Acro epoxied to an eggcrate hanger

[Frick-n-Frags]

Here is a closup of my now totally PO'd table Acro :D

[Frick-n-Frags]

Here are some lage millepora-ish frags that I spaced widely. The crabs already broke one little shard off its glue dot. Save every scrap of coral with good flesh on it. They grow big eventually and they are free frags.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Here is an eggcrate hanger with the frags glued right to it. These frags are starting to plate and the should become one colony too. I try to start with 6 frags and I am happy to have 4 make it still attached.
You can see the humilis plate in the background in its normal place.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Here are some GSP's on a pop bottle and some froggies hanging next to it froma pop bottle/nylon tie rig. These are in my real junk box in VHO actinic lights.

[scubadude]

You are my hero! LMAO...MY Lord! You have been doing some major experimenting! My favorite one by far is coralhager7.jpg because of the possibilities with the stair stepping of frags....Awesome pictures! I hope you dont mind if i copy some of these techniques?

[scubadude]

Originally posted by BlAcK_PeRcUlA
why do people suspend corals?

Hey black_perc

Its mainly to utilize more growth space, spur different growth patterns, and I have even seen change of coloration. There may be many reasons some which may not even be known yet. I dont think its a real common practice yet, and still in experimenting stages.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Help yourself, that's why I showed y'all :) I will keep trying crazy stuff as I get my hands on it.
Thank God for superglue and epoxy not being very toxic. Those glues sure make life easier. :D

The downside to the eggcrate hangers is that the snails bunch them up and broke a few frags off and a couple had to burn each other a little to get settled being neighbors. But I think they will grow nice heads.

[bgdiving]

Frick-n-Frag
How are you making your stair stepping egg crate structures and your egg crate hangers? Are you glueing them? If so what type glue? Or melting them or...........

I need more space, have a few corals suspended over power heads and from some of my braces but still have corals growing into each other and some occaional coral wars.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Real brute force technique involving my small sized diagonal side-cutters. I snip out all the segments that don't look like a hanger.

I sized the hanger to go over the top of the tank, then made the stair-steppies, then left segments reaching back to the glass to hold it out. They could probably be overlapped a little when patterning the cutout on the sheet of eggcrate, but I just had a few useless pieces of eggcrate. They probably could use some fine tuning, like gluing a crossmember horizontally to keep them from being bunched up by the snails (trochus D-8 dozers especially)

I think I am going to try one Lego plate instead of a CD case and see how snapping legos(with a frag glued to it) onto the baseplate works. I'm looking for high density packing of small frags like birdsnest and Monti d. Acros are hard to deliberately make small uniform frags. They actually suck fragging and sometimes even my big sidecutters can't get through like tables and humilis and you just have to get the chisel and hammer out (that is so frickin scary putting the chisel to your head of Acro, especially when there is a crab in there too) because this minimized the handling trauma, bam, one shot, trauma over.

I also think fuzzy absorbent things like towels harm corals, and the soft traction of our hands too. sharp and hard things things like countertops and metal tools only touch at one point, like a crab's foot, and don't damage the really thin layer of coral flesh. Even if you poke a little hole in the coral, right to the bone, it heals within hours, but a big towel abrasion kills the whole area.

We used to have Hydnoman made out of a headless lego dude with a big Hydnophora frag for a noodle. He fell in a really bad place where we couldn't even see him. But he'll be back now that I'm ready to frag some more Hydnos. Moooaahhaaahaaahaaa! :D

[scubadude]

LMAO...you gotta hook us up w/some pics of hydnoman! :p :lol: :rollface:

[Frick-n-Frags]

Yeah, the Aiptasia are quaking in their boots already, cause a mean burnin' is a comin' their way. We used to just tie-wrap him into place and watch the little guy cook. Xenias are the best, they look like they are smoking as they dissolve into nothingness. The Hydnophora always looks better after a dissolving too, so maybe it is actually digesting some of its victim's mass. (Be careful though, if the crabs throw Hydnoman onto any other coral c-ya-bye-bye the coral is a goner!)

[bgdiving]

Been wanting to do a leggo reef. Make a leggo structure and then use 2 or 3 types of fast growing reef building corals to do some reef builidng, just to see how long it would take yo get to the point you couldn't tell it was built with leggos. Maybe using some softies like Xenia, zoannids or green starts to fill in a few area's around the SPSs

[bgdiving]

Frick-n-Frrags
how long have you had leggos in your tank? did hydoman actually grow attached to the leggo stucture?

[Frick-n-Frags]

Hydnoman was a while ago. The hydnophora had plated down onto the plastic guy. Eventually he surfaced but the Hydno was dead and I took it out. I have had one lego upside down that I shoved some little slimy leather frags into and weighted it with gravel. That is very high quality plastic I think. The Lego is still even red colored. I feel pretty confidant about using them regarding any leaching or poisoning issues.

I think the lego houses is a hilarious idea. I was thinking about decorating some of those stupid Penn-plax air toys or turn something into a GSP chia pet. You never saw my Xmas card with Poci the reindeer that I posted did you. Poci has a huge afro now. :D Here is the original from last Nov or Dec.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?postid=336233

[scubadude]

Brian (bgdiving) that frag that I got from you...the 2nd pic above well its already totally encrusted over the thread. Just thought you might want to know....this is turning out very interesting...the polyp expansion is double that of the other piece that I just did a standard mount upright. I can definately see this as a viable source for more experimentation.

[bgdiving]

Scubadude that sounds great. Are you seeing any new axial coralites yet? I wonder what that other coral, you have hanging upside down but attached to a spinkler strainer, is going to grow out like? wonder how fast it'll encrusted the strainer and what kind of branch structure it'll have?

My suspended blue acro is looking really nice and my green pociliporas are really growing. I'm thinking of trying the very bright pink pocilipora, I really don't have very much of this coral so I'm a little concerned about expermenting with it. but all my other suspended corals are doing very well so I might give it a try. Hoping it will increase the total growth rate??? If I do frag it I'll end up with over half of the coral suspended since it's so small.

[scubadude]

yes the coral does have new axialites....lots of them actually, at least 3-4 of them. The one piece w/the sprinkler strainer is encrusting fast, and the axialites that where pointed up when the piece was standing upright are starting to turn back towards the light now. I really think you should try it w/your pink pocillapora I feel quite confident that from seeing how it works in your tank and how it is working in my tank that it cannot hurt a coral, if anything it helps....Dont you have a couple of pieces of the pink pocillapora? it really is best i think when you have two pieces that are very similar in size to compare differences

[Frick-n-Frags]

bgdiving and scubadude, are you noticing better growth (adding volume I guess) on the suspended frags vs the standard mounted ones or is it still too soon to tell. Are they all kind of in the same environment (light intensity, flow) so you can definitely tell if the hanging technique generates better growth than the standard mounted ones.

I have been having problems with algae on the strings because nothing can get to them. Have you guys had any of those kinds of problems ?

[bgdiving]

On one piece of green pocilipora I feel I have an extra 20 to 25 new growth tips that I would not have had other wise, had I not removed the branch from the parent or had prop it hte normal way. On some of the others I don't see that kind of difference but it does seem to be a ltttle more coral tissue than there would have been other wise.

It's hard to say about conditions the suspended are all up higher than the others but not always more light.

Anthony Calfo says algae shouldn't be a problem in a well maintained low nutrient tank, but I don't skim and I definately have to remove algae from the string.

[Frick-n-Frags]

thanx bg, I am in the same boat: no skimmer, but at least I know it's not just me. I should try some more suspended frags too of different types. I have two pieces of tan Montipora digitata swinging, but they aren't the most "branchy" corals, for sure not like Poci or Acros.
Time to tighten up the controls and get another test going too I think.

[scubadude]

hey frick and bg

I do skimm and still get a little bit of algae on the string (doesnt appear to bother anything though)...but one thing I have noticed is the coral has already covered the part of the string that is tied around the coral (you cant even see the loop) I also have noticed more growth because I think there is more room for it to grow, especially the frag that doesnt have the sprinkler filter attached to it

[Anthony Calfo]

For what its worth, one small detail that I feel that I may not have communicated clearly enough to friends/aquarists is that it is arguably easier to culture frags in suspension without any natural or artificial substrates in concert.

By simply tying a string to a pure frag (no rock, plastic, plug, base, etc) there is no need for support by herbivores (snails, crabs, etc) or threat of settling nuisance alage short of the string itself which is easily swabbed once or twice a month if necessary.

In this manner, a developing scleractinian sphere is all "claws and paws"... all healthy living tissue which algae will not settle upon and snails are unlikely to graze if it did.

Using a base or plug (heehee... was that a nylon bolt? :p cool) certainly will present little harm especially if nutrient control in the system tempers the possible settlement of nuisance algae or the aquarist is willing to deal with such until live tissue covers the non-living substrate. Little help or harm to have a base included IMO. Whatever suits your porpoise best (Hmmm... what do Pinnipeds have to do with this?!?!).

For the benefit of those reading this thread unawares... there is an article on this topic in one of the summer issues of Reefkeeping as well as a passage in my book on the topic as well.

Fraggenstein... way cool pics :D The lobotomy has been a blessing and a boon for your contributions to our hobby.

Rocky... you are still clinically insane, which is why I am sure that you naturally migrated to this industry :p

best to all, Prozac on the house

Anthony

[bgdiving]

Went ahead and suspended a few more corals this afternoon. Did the bright pink pocilipora (the small branched one Not the thicker ones that I bought as Pocilipora but can't possitively diferentiate from the bright pink stylos) they ended up prety small one came out the way I expected but the other took an extra snap so I ended up with 3 frags instead of the 2 I planned so one got mounted on substrate and the other 2 suspended. Also did a pinkish purple pocilipora and a thick brached acro that had been a bleached out light lavender when I got it but is now a nondiscript brown. This acro suspention was more an effort to save some lower branches that were going to be lost in a couple of wks so it may not be a good test.


Anthony, I've had fun with this method since reading your article. Scubadude came up and saw what I was doing and got excited about all the new growth I had so he was excited about trying it. Now my tanks are starting to look like spider webs!:eek1:

[Anthony Calfo]

bgdiving,

Very great to hear :)

Now... more pictures...more pictures of your specimens over time! :p

I'm still a lousy photgrapher :D and I'll need photos for upcoming books and articles.

How shameless was that on a scale of 1 to 10? with 1 being a subtle hint, 5 being a note on a napkin and 10 being a 450lb belly dancer with the request written in body paint across the undulating folds of her midsection.

Just a question...

Anthony

[bgdiving]

I did take a few pics along the way, quite a few at first and none recently so I should take a few now to show some good before and after shots. I've only posted 1 pic to reef central posts and I don't seem to have a way to post a pic directly into the body of the message so I can't show a start and Now type comparison.

I'll try to get out and take a pic tomorrow and post it and post a start pic

[Goby1Knoby]

Great Thread Guy's :smokin:

Well I gotta say thats a new one, re: the suspending frags.

Great idea and a great way to ensure , after initial growth all the coral receives adequate light.

Frick & Frags.

What about a few more pics, dont be shy :D

Tony

Ta for the mail about your book, will be contacting the UK supplier.

As for the Bellydancer with the " spare tyre ", youve just put me off my lunch :D


Cheers


Brian.

[Frick-n-Frags]

I wanted the "bottle in front of me" but the dyslexic mutha's gave me the "frontal lobotomy" It's OK though as long as I don't drool into the tanks and always wear my bib. :D

[bgdiving]

I'll try to get the pics up don't know how to do them in line so that you could see them both at the same time. The first one is the initial frag day 1 or 2 after suspending

[bgdiving]

About 3 months and 3 days later. You can see the new growth unfortantely due to different settings you can not tell the total size change. The frag is still in the same position as it was originally but the growth pattern has changed

[scubadude]

very interesting pics brian :)

Thanx for posting those....Is it me or do you also notice that the branches that point down have actual stunted growth (they appear to be shorter) Maybe this is from the lack of light? But your other pieces that I saw (I believe the A. Tenius the branches actually just rerouted upward)

[bgdiving]

The originaly downward pointed branches have made a U turn and have started to turn around but are having to make a wide turn beacause of all the new upward branch growth (coming from what use to be the under side of the branches) above forcing the lower branches to go more outward as they try to make the turn. allmost like a woolly Mamamath tusk that heads downward then start to curve around. If you look closely at the last pic you can track out one of the lower branches as it starts to make the turn. The branch just left of center on the bottom is a good example.

The" A. Tenius (?)" blue tips are starting to curve upward but it is also starting to send out new axial coralites perpendicular all along the descending branch and the cut upward facing end has turned a bright dark blue and is sending out several new axial coralites also so the lower original tips are going to have to circumnavigate the new growth above. Right now the lower tips have turned 90 degrees. This acro should start to become real interesting over the next month as all these new branches start to grow. :eek1:

[SawCJack00]

Very interesting. Now I've got a project for tonight. I'll be cutting some corals and stringin' them up. Should be fun!

[bgdiving]

Scubadude,
Anthony Calfo indicated in his article that suspention was best done in a dedicated tank with a uncluttered white sand bottom. I wonder if the tips on the downward pointed branches would continue to grow down with a bright light reflecting substrate? I know that's not happening with mine because they are all making the turn to go up BUT I am not susspending them over a clear , bright ,reflective bottom.

I'm so intrigued by the way the blue " A. Tenius (?)" is developing that I'm contimplating fragging out 2 larger branches from one of the 2 colonies that I was going to let grow out. I wasn't going to touch these two BUT.... I think I could get two 3 to 4 inch frags with 5 branches on each frag from the " A. Tenius (?)" at the back of my tank that is being shadowed by those xenias at the water surface. What kind of a difference do you think it will make strating with a larger frag with more branches? Is there an optimum size when it comes to hanging frags. Maybe bigger isn't better???

[Corpus Callosum]

what about trying this also..

Get a motor that will go like 1-5 rpm or so, mount it right above the tank on a wall or something. Hook the shaft up to a plastic/acrylic rod which will vertically go into the water and have a plastic gear on the end of it. On a plate of plexiglass or something, will be a whole row of other plastic gears on plastic shafts so they can rotate, and they will all be touching the original gear so they will all rotate, slowly though. Then mount frags to each gear. Also hover the whole row of gears or whatever, a couple inches above the substrate so no snails get in the way and stop them rotating.

[Anthony Calfo]

sci33

Is Long Islnad anywhere near Brooklyn? I'll be giving a presentation on Coral Propagation to the BAS club Friday (9/13/02)... if you have any such contraptions at your place I'll have to beg for a guest pass and bring a camera :p !

Very interesting concept... heehee.

Anthony Calfo

[Corpus Callosum]

obsolete

[bgdiving]

sci33
A little tooo complex for me, in fact most of my tanks do NOT have sumps partly to keep things simple. if you work it up please post back to this thread and let us know also post pics.

Anthony Calfo
Any thoughts on what is an ideal size frag for hanging? Do larger frags block their own light,( Most of us playing with this idea right now are NOT using dedicated tanks) Also what size do you allow them to grow to before doing something else with them?

[Corpus Callosum]

I know everyone always says keep it simple and you won't have problems but if you don't try some new complex things sometimes you will never advance.

(I have a 45 gallon sump on my 10 gallon tank :) )

Also, I remember reading that a white sand substrate is preferred? Why not just use a bare bottom tank and on the underside of the tank place a sheet of spectral aluminum.

Or forget about that, I would like to set up a dedicated tank on an iron stand with no substrate, with suspended corals. One metal halide in a reflector/pendant above the tank, and one identical metal halide below the tank facing upwards giving almost the same amount of light from both sides.

[Anthony Calfo]

"Any thoughts on what is an ideal size frag for hanging? Do larger frags block their own light,( Most of us playing with this idea right now are NOT using dedicated tanks) Also what size do you allow them to grow to before doing something else with them?" BG

Definately no ideal size or rule of thumb other than minimal branching. As you have noticed, new branches will grow in suit to the new light and current. As such, a frag taken with a lot of branches in an unfavorable orientation are not only a waste of effort (better to break such a piece down smaller) but the very presence of said "unfavorably" oriented branches may be an impediment to light and current for the new/future growth. I'm specifically thinking of a piece with a lot of downward branches.

Ultimately, the frag will adapt in time... but with regard for efficiency, I'll opt for smaller or less arborescent frags.

As far as terminal grow out size... that's really a functional matter. It varies for each grower and their respective purposes. Some folks simply want to grow a coral large and fast to ultimately be fixed to rock as a display piece while other aquarists are looking to culture as many individual frags as possible. That aquarist looking to boost the number of individuals in the colony will not want to let the frags stay suspended very long, but rather frequently grow and break, grow and break. Else, overgrowth of suspended frags dedicted to produce other frags imposes undue/extra demands for adapation.

Its all experimental though... please manipulate and improvise and report your successes!

With kind regards,

Anthony

[bgdiving]

Anthony
When you mention grow and break , grow and break for maximun production. Would you totally break up the suspended frag and then hang one of the broken off sections to start the process all over again. Or would you snap branches or sections off the "parent" colony and re hang the stumpy parent.

[Anthony Calfo]

For the purpose of increasing colony number (grow and break) ... I was referring to the frags only (after the initial sample from parent/wild stock... no more is needed from that donor).

So... for example: a 2" suspended frag/sphere is grown out to 4" and then divided in half. Those two, 2" frags are grown out to 4" again, and then split into four, 2" frags and so on.

For coral farmers it is a dreadful mistake to sell from inventory too early. Going from five to fifty corals in six months is great, but turning fifty into 250 pieces in another six months is even better. And the patience to wait one year to get to that point will afford a mother colony that allows you to harvest many tens of heads monthly instead of a just a handful with a colony that cannot exceed 50 (by premature harvest).

Again... which method/path all comes back to one's purpose... growing suspended frags in private for fun and experimentation purely as an aquarist, or... having some inclination toward producing coral for regional trade and beyond.

Hope it helps :)

[scubadude]

Sci,
Im not opposed to try something new and advanced and Im totally against anyone who makes statements like "You must do this THIS way" I think new inventors, thinkers, and motivators is one of the main things that excels our hobby. On a different note I will quote Henry Ford "Do not come to me with something I can add to my cars to make them run more effecient, but show me a piece I can take off my car to make run more effecient" I think your idea of the motor has merit, and I for one would like to see it in action. You are probably the best person to put it in action as you have it in your mind. Please if you do take pictures and share with us if you do it.

Anthony,
I have a problem with a fragging method that you suggest of just keep fragging new growth branches. The problem is the branch eventually keeps getting thicker and thicker and harder to frag. In particular is an A. youngei I have I can see that eventually if I keep fragging this mother colony that I will have one huge chunk of calcium and will not have an as appealing growth pattern. Your thoughts to prevent this?

Brian,
Cant wait to see your new pieces hanging. I think im gonna try some orange M. Digitata in suspension. BTW I really enjoyed myself and chattin w/you on the way up to ORCA ;-) Thanx for hanging w/me buddy.

[Anthony Calfo]

Rocky,

We have a miscommunication here bud... :)

You are correct that repetitive fragging of the same donor will leave an aesthetically detractive specimen. But even then it is a moot point since the purpose of the process was to produce a volume of new frags and the donor (parent) simply is sacrificial. However... I still cannot see it getting thick for many species if at all... you are fragging new growth: for a parent in the same position and getting the same water flow, the new branches should be the same thickness as the old branches having grown to suit in the same spot. Unless you are only talking about pillaging old growth from an imported specimen.

Even with that said... none of the above was my actual point.

From my last post:

"I was referring to the frags only (after the initial sample from parent/wild stock... no more is needed from that donor).
So... for example: a 2" suspended frag/sphere is grown out to 4" and then divided in half. Those two, 2" frags are grown out to 4" again, and then split into four, 2" frags and so on. "

I'm not sure if you missed that post before your reply or if I missed making my point clear...

Whether the parent/donor is wild or fully cultured makes little difference. We are fragging it one time only to get a piece (or pieces) for suspension. From that point on... only the suspended pieces are divided (all new growth). 2 becomes 4, 4 become 8, 8 becomes 18, etc. You might literally take a single branch of "youngei" for example and never look back. Of course... this advice may be a little late now that your parent colony looks like the survivor of a nuclear holocaust... heehee.

Somebody let me know if I'm making any sense yet or if I should make another Prozac and Yukon Jack cocktail. Oh... wait a minute, its not noon yet. :D

PS: Rocky... send me your websites banner, my webmaster is updating my site. Thanks bud :)

Kind regards to all,

Anthony

[Corpus Callosum]

Rocky,

Sorry about my last post it came a bit off. I agree that keeping things simple can very well be more efficient at times, and obviously everyone here knows this as they have far more experience than I do. I was just trying to say that sometimes trying complex things can be very beneficial, and many other times it won't be. Getting rid of some equipment and taking a risk that way, making things simpler, can also be successful at times. I guess it really just works both ways. I have work and personal projects that I'm pursuing at this point plus some college applications but given a couple of weeks to a month or two, I can build the contraption and then at that point send it to someone who can have a dedicated tank for it. I wouldn't mind setting up the tank and monitoring the experiment with my digital camera and all but I really doubt I have enough money for another metal halide plus bulb at this point in time.

Anthony,

Are you trying to say that once the suspended frag has grown into a 'sphere' or something like that, frag it symmetrically so that the 2 new frags look like small colonies in themselves. Then take those 2 new frags, suspend them upside down all over again, and once divided again you will have twice as many 'small colonies' or frags. Is this what you are trying to say?

Anyhow I have my digital camera, and if I begin any work I'll let everyone know. I have many other ideas like the one I mentioned, but I will take things one step at a time before I release the rest of my crazy experiment ideas.

-Mike

[bgdiving]

sci33
One of the draw backs of using a single Metal halide over a tank is that you have a single point light source giving bright and shadowed areas But if you used 2 of your contraptions each centered over over the 1/3 point of the tank you could possibly grow 3 times as much high intensty light loving corals as you could other wise with the same single bulb. i.e. a six ft by 2 ft wide tank lit by a single 400 watt halide with your device center half way between the bulb and the end of the tank and anouther on the other side of the tank. That way all of the corals would be rotaing though the bright and the less brightly lit areas. Problably could get as much growth or more as you could with 3 fixed 400 watt halides.
They do something like that with Phyto Plankton cultures rotaing them in and out of the light.

[Corpus Callosum]

Well if I did it it would be in a small tank like 10-20 gallons , maybe 40 gallon breeder, anyway I could probably spread out the light enough. But that's not my point. I'm not rotating the corals for light distribution, if I wanted to that I'd just place the metal halides on a light mover - this is what everyone does in the agricultural world, and it is what I will be doing on my future larger tanks. With metal halides moving left to right , slowly though, throughout the day, light is used much more efficiently and there are fewer shadow spots, given an amount of time so the light can get to that area. Anyway back to the rotating gear thing. My plan was to do this and have just one powerhead on the corals. Water needs only to flow in one direction, since the corals are rotating, each side of the coral gets the same amount of flow. That's pretty much why I wanted to try it, to see the growth patterns the rotating of the corals, dealing with water movement, would produce. thanks for the info!

In agriculture, there are other ways of getting even light distribution by using parabolic shapes going upwards from beneath the bulb. I'll draw up a picture if photoshop later on and show you what I mean cause I can't explain it too well..

[Anthony Calfo]

BG...

Very good point about the limitataions of static posterior illumination. I'm hoping that we will see new and interesting applications for simulating the arc and path of a lamp over aquaria mimicing the sun in the near future. I know that more than a few people are working on this. It makes perfect sense.

kindly, Anthony

[Frick-n-Frags]

How about radically reducing the moving pieces, parts count on the contraption to reduce cost and increase reliability. Instead of having umpteen gears and shafts, have one large acrylic merri-go-round that rotates. Each frag won't rotate on its axis, but more like the moon rotates as it revolves around the earth. This could be done without the light mover also and it makes for a possibly extremely geared down system with a much cheaper higher speed motor, ie visualize a belt drive turntable, with a vee in the platter edge and a big rubber belt drive....or some such nonsense
(tell me to stop thinking like a machine builder)

I would also recommend having as little machinery under the water as possible where it can get clogged or jammed and generally degraded.

[Corpus Callosum]

sounds good

[Frick-n-Frags]

ps, IMO this may be one of the greatest threads ever regarding people thinking and doing and generally making progress.

Sure has my mind going (but then again with only 2 brain cells, and one of them waving bye-bye to the other, anything gets my mind going)


Has anyone played around with a white sided prop container to really optimize reflected light? Could one actually light the coral from many angles using a integrated reflector/tank design? (and keep the dang coralline off) white sand is a good start

[Corpus Callosum]

try painting every side of the aquarium (from outside) flat white.. good light usage.

[Corpus Callosum]

Here is what I was talking about considering parabolic/circular placement. Directly under the MH bulb gets the most light, but on the same flat plane of a spot under the MH, moving to the left or right will be farther away from the bulb and a little less light (the whole deal with point source lighting). Anyhow in some agricultural places they keep plants directly under the MH bulb at the lowest spot, then to get equal mounts of lights to the spots left and right, they move the plants higher up, so that once arranged properly most plants are getting around the same amount of light (even though its from different direction). Like in the picture below if it was a frag tank you could have a row of eggcrate shelf in the middle on the bottom of the tank, and on the left and right just make taller and taller shelves, etc..

[Corpus Callosum]

Now, here's another idea from my large box. Ignore the considerations about what it would take to make this structurally sound, just assume it's thick acrylic or whatever and will hold itself, or it has bracing etc.. lets call this my donut plan.

I mean this tank would be pretty expensive also, but just put that aside for now. You have a cylindrical tank. In the center is a partition/second cylinder, which is very well attached to the tank and is sealed properly. On the inside of this area there is no water, only on the outside. Mounted in the center of the middle cylinder is a vertical MH bulb (those which can be mounted vertically), above it is a fan or whatever blowing in for heat control etc, not important for the concept anyway. Then the light from all directions from the bulb can be used to culture frags, if the MH bulb was mounted above the tank like it is in everyones tank at the current time, a lot of light hitting the reflectors and such isn't getting used as it could best. Anyhow, frags are either mounted all along the walls of the tank so they grow from all sides towards the center, or they can be suspended from the large lip on the tank. Since this is a cylindrical tank, using a strong powerhead in one direction would keep the motion going all around the tank, then there can be like 2 powerheads facing opposite directions each on a timer so the current varies from one direction to the next when the other powerhead is off.. anyway the pictures will help explain this better than all that mumbo jumbo I just typed.

here is the overhead shot of the tank.

[Corpus Callosum]

and here is the frontal/side shot.

frags would be mounted like 3 on a string, all around the perimeter of the outer wall, on the inside.

[Corpus Callosum]

Or,

for another concept, if you're one of those people who just wants more light from the sides as well, maybe to get more coloring going deeper in the coral, and/or the sides/bottom, you can try something like this. A tank with partitions on the side that are not filled with water, sealed, and have a couple of long bulbs in them that are strong, one example could be T5 lighting. Here, the picture will explain it a little better.

Even if better coloration was achieved this way it wouldn't be worth it though, as if the corals were moved to a tank with just lighting from the top, it would probably lose some of the colors deeper in the coral or more on the sides. Lighting a tank this way though might allow the coral to grow out 'fuller' in terms of diameter as well.

[bgdiving]

Anthony
I am a little confused as to why you would cut the newly grown sphere in half and resuspended the 2 halves rather than frag it into several sections or branches and resuspend the multiple sections which would be more like what we started out with, that worked well, than the 2 half spheres would be. It would seem to me that the half spheres would already be crowded on the now bottom and would restrict growth compared to fraggging out brances or sections and resuspending. I haven't moved up to this level YET!

Do you think the 3 month suspended Pocilipora, that I have posted as an attachment (my 2nd pic post as attachment middle of page 2 of this thread), is ready to be split or do you think I should let it grow more before splitting? My intent (other than pure experimental) is to place one section of the split on substrate to see how it grows out after having been suspended and with the rest of the split try to go for maximum production. This is all still new to me and I'm finding it exciting to play with.

[Anthony Calfo]

BG... sorry for the delay in response. I just got back in town from presenting to the Brooklyn Aquarium Society. What a great club! They pull aquarists from Philly and as far north as Boston. Huge too... almost 400 members... and 30-50% in attendance monthly.

Regarding your question, I get the impression that you really are overthinking the process my friend. You simply need to try it and experiment to see it. The method you use will need only to serve your purpose. If you were fragging large scale, your goal is to get your colony size up quickly... as such, you'll break them young and frequently just to bring the numbers up to a point where you can afford sit back and relax while they grow out. In this situation, you seem to be missing my point. The frequent frag-grow-and-break cycle does not let individuals grow so dense that they have to adapt with difficulty. Its not like a 1" frag turns into a 60 branch monster in 2 months (if so... we want your recipe!). So there is no imbalancd sphere to be worried about. You simply need to have a goal in mind... like: I want to grow/sell 10 frags per month of this species... then figure out by experimentation how big of a parent colony is needed to support a sustainable harvest of 10 pieces monthy. If a species could grow to saleable size in one month, the your low end target should simply be a parent colony of ten. Ten is broken into 20 and grown out for 4 weeks. At that time.. 10 are traded/sold and the other 10 are broken in half to start again. One month later... 20 saleable sized pieces exist again... 10 get sold, and 10 get split... and so on.

Since you just want to experiment with 2 specimens (one each hung and fixed)... then my advice to be fair would be for you to start with two very small frags with few branches. Thus, each delelops entirely to match its new parameters.

Best regards, Anthony

[eddie]

sci33 not sure I understand your rotating idea?

I do have a startrac light mover from ACI hydroponics over my new 180gal(linear type & they do also make circular movers that can rotate 1,2or 3 lights also

would'nt that achive the same goal?

the mover I have now is the most advanced on the market and can be adjusted to pause at each end to even out light distrubution slow down or speed up.

I'll be getting a 3 arm circular mover also for a 8ftx8ftx18"vat (sooner or later)I'll run a 400 Iwaski,10kushio & 20k all combined in a circular pattern(or mabey just 2 1000watters like the sunmaster cool delux 65k & 20 ushio)

btw my 180 is barebottom I'll put some styrofoam under it to reflect but from past experiance the coraline will cover the bottom pretty quick so aluminum is not very practical unless you keep the bottom scraped

[Corpus Callosum]

I think those 3 arm light movers also have the ability to add up to 5 arms if you feel like having more light..

Anyhow I was suggesting the rotating thing more for the effect of water movement on it than light..

[eddie]

oh..well sounds cool but what about smaller snails?

[Corpus Callosum]

nothing I have suggested was intended for people's tanks at home as I think that's pretty pointless. These would be dedicated experimental tanks, bare bottom, nothing in them, with their own lights and hood, then it could be plumbed to the main system. No snails or inverts would really be inside it unless there was a huge algae problem for some reason..

[mustangsv0]

yo yo yo,
interesting thread. i have an acro hanging on fishing line. the line's been encrusted around and it's beginning to branch out.

i was wondering what you all think would happen to a frag of a plating coral, like an acropora efflorescence?? i have three efflo, i could try hanging one of them. i guess the same question applies to montipora capricornis/foliosa.

victor.

[mustangsv0]

well, i have suspended a piece of my a. efflo, just out of curiosity. hope it does well.

[bgdiving]

Getting ready to terminate my first experment with suspended corals. I was going to split the suspended pocilipora in half and resuspend one half and attach the other half to substrate... BUT ... I kind of like the way the frag developed into a nice nearly round colony (Thanks Anthony for this great idea) so I'm thinking about moving the whole thing into my display tank. I should be getting my light meter tomorrow night so as soon as I can identify a spot that semi matches the light I am going to cut the fishing line!

[Newreeflady]

Why don't they swing and hit each other? I'd figure in a high flow sps tank they'd swing around a bit, are they that heavy that they resist the flow?

thx,
Angela.

[mustangsv0]

mine swing around, but they do not knock each other. i think the a theory for hanging them is so that they can swing. instead of creating circulation around a stationary coral, we are making the coral sway in the current as to increase the water flow around it.

[eddie]

hmm..I thought it was to use up space that would otherwise be wasted

[mustangsv0]

that too. :D i guess my reasoning was different than yours.

[kennerd]

A few quick questions on this:

Has anyone used the hanging method or the soda bottle method for monti cap & how did it plate?

Also: I have some leftover flexible plastic mesh sheeting that I initially use for the cone of a homegrown fish trap: think this would work for GSP? would make fragging and trading a snap, since it can be cut to size/shape once it's covered.

[The Shaman]

Hi all,

Since this thread is several months old now, I was hoping that some of you would care to share your experiences w/ suspension frags. You know, successes/failures, unusual growth patterns(got pics?), lessons learned, that sort of thing. I'm sure that some of this has been posted in their own threads, but I was kinda hoping to put everything in one place.(A start to finish sorta thing) Any takers?

[Tagamet]

Great thread. Since the search function is unavailable, can anyone (Anthony?) point me toward the specifics of how the corals are hung? What's used to suspend them, thread? Monofilament? hung from their base? Depth?
Anthony, I do have your first book, but it's in the land of "it's around here somewhere". Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. I'm just setting up a 120 that'll be my first all SPS endeavor. My 240 is all LPS and softies, so this is VERY new ground (or water) for me.
TIA,
Tagamet

[TippyToeX]

Quoting form Calfo's BOCP, pg. 60..

Corals are to be suspended from monofilament string (fishing line) for the purpose of maximizing water flow and lighting for growth in mariculture. Evenly spaced, transversed PVC or plastic rods will support the colonies on string and can be dated or otherwise labled for livestock management.

HTH :)

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by TippyToex
Quoting form Calfo's BOCP, pg. 60..

HTH :)

Thank you! Yes, it helps a great deal. I think I'll "hang" some tomorrow.
Tagamet

[TippyToeX]

Glad to help. Take some pictures if you can. I love this idea, even for a display tank. I plan on doing some "hanging" in my tank soon. I would love to see how Psammocora grows using suspension.

I hope the folks that have tried this method will post some updated pics.

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by TippyToex
Glad to help. Take some pictures if you can. I love this idea, even for a display tank. I plan on doing some "hanging" in my tank soon. I would love to see how Psammocora grows using suspension.

I hope the folks that have tried this method will post some updated pics.

Yes! Anyone out there tried this in their tanks? (aside from Anthony Calfo). Pictures please.
Tagamet:D

[Skipper]

Tagamet: here's Anthony's article in Reefkeeping Magazine...

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/ac/feature/index.htm

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by Skipper
Tagamet: here's Anthony's article in Reefkeeping Magazine...

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/ac/feature/index.htm

thanks so much! That was very nice of you to search that out for me. I'm sure it'll be a good read (and lead to even MORE questions). It may be covered in the article, but won't there either be a "line" on the coral where the mono was, or will the coral encrust the line?
Tagamet

[Ocean Image]

I would assume the flesh would grow around the line, and eventually the skeleton would follow. I just suspended some frags last night after reading this post. Very cool experiment and use of valuable space.

[Tagamet]

Creeper,
Yeah, if it works, that "wasted" space could really be productive!. Keep us posted. What kind are ou going to try? I'll be hanging some tonight.
Tagamet

[Tagamet]

ou = you

[TippyToeX]

Creeper & Tagamet- Post some pictures if you can. I would be very interested in seeing what & how you will be suspending. :)

[Ocean Image]

I can post pictures later, once I get some time. I now have hanghing a frag of each: green w/ purple rim monti cap., green acro yongei (green slimer), green w/pink tip millipora, and a green w/red polyp acro sp.

Most frags are about 1 1/2 to 2".

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by TippyToex
Creeper & Tagamet- Post some pictures if you can. I would be very interested in seeing what & how you will be suspending. :)

Not a great pic, but a pic, nonetheless. a piece of birdsnest (seriotopia -sp), Psmania, and pocillipora (all spellings are incorrect <g>)
Tagamet

[TippyToeX]

Creeper- I am looking forward to the pics. Mostly seeing how the M. cap grows out.

Tagamet Excellent! Thanks for the pic. I hope you get some quick and diverse growth.

[Tagamet]

Thanks, TippeyT. Creeper, Didn't Calfo experss concern about trying monti? Maybe he just said it'd be interesting to see what shape a typically plating coral might take.
Tagamet

[TippyToeX]

Hey Tag, are you speaking of this quote..

. This technique has been demonstrated to be especially effective with Pocilloporids (Pocillopora, Seriatopora and Stylophora), Agariciids (Pavona), Galaxea, Psammocora and Hydnophora, to be specific. Most Acroporids (Acropora and Montipora) fare equally well grown this way, although some species and morphologies are less forgiving (such as tabling forms that we may want to fix securely and coax into an expected natural form).

From the above link Skipper gave? Maybe just because they grow out in a more funky manner, not what people desire in a M. cap perhaps. Not to sure.

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by TippyToex
Hey Tag, are you speaking of this quote..

From the above link Skipper gave? Maybe just because they grow out in a more funky manner, not what people desire in a M. cap perhaps. Not to sure.

Precisely. It'd be really interesting if a typically plating coral ended up growing into a "free form" or even round. It'd be even more interesting deciding what to *do* with it. I suppose it could be split in half and the "inside" placed "down". Otherwize, the underside would die for lack of light. I keep picturing drops of water in the space shuttle being perfectly spherical. A Monti Cap like that??? The psammocora that I'm doing is typically "flat", too.
Assuming they survive, it should be an interesting experiment.
Tagamet

[scubadude]

These are some of Brian Greene's acros that he has in suspension, the best examples that I have seen of them so far :)

http://www.coralfragz.com/images/bgdiving/bg3.jpg
http://www.coralfragz.com/images/bgdiving/bg4.jpg

Rocky

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by scubadude
These are some of Brian Greene's acros that he has in suspension, the best examples that I have seen of them so far :)

http://www.coralfragz.com/images/bgdiving/bg3.jpg
http://www.coralfragz.com/images/bgdiving/bg4.jpg

Rocky

Sweet! One question though - how does he keep them from getting all tangled? Even moderate current really makes my three swing pretty much. His seem to be hung very clase together.
Tagamet

[Ocean Image]

Great pics Scubadude.

All of this is experimental (in my mind), and I'm sure that everyones specimens will grow out differently. I think that current will play a huge roll in the shape of the plating type corals.
I am very interested to see how the Monti Cap grows out in my tank. I don't think that it will take a ball formation, that doesn't seem very beneficial to the coral. I think that it will plate out close to normal. My hope is that it won't tier (vertical layer) itself like the mother colony. One big vase of a coral would be cool. I have it located in a relatively low flow area.
All of my suspensions are recieving current from a 5 gal surge device (soon to be 2), and 440W vho lighting (2 super actinics and 2 50/50), hung about 6" below the surface of the water.

[Tagamet]

Hey Creeper, I'm in PA too. I know this is a *little* off this topic, but does the surge device cause any tangling problems with the threads? Do you have any pics of the surge device? If so, could you mail me them? I'm not on a dialup connection, so they wouldn't have to be shrunk as much at they need to be, to be posted here.
TIA,
Tagamet

[Ocean Image]

No problem with tangling, they all seem to swing together. Reminds me of a good party I attended once :D. (insert laughter here)

I use a Carlson surge device w/ a 5 foot drop on one of my tanks. This device gives a nice slow starting surge that gradually increases in intensity until it abruptly stops. I notice no tangling with this device. I have a toilet flapper surge on my other tank. If I had the suspended coral in this tank they would end up in a tangled mess. This device sends a HUGE slug of water followed by a nice full flow, then an abrupt stop. The initial slug of water is VERY strong! It would flatten most softies. I don't think this device would work well with suspended corals.

If your still interested in the surge device pictures I'll have to take some. I'm warning you, they are just 5 gallon buckets hanging from the rafters with some hoses coming out of them. Not a pretty site, thankfully I have a cool wife and an open basement. :D I'll send you some pics tomorrow.

[Purple Haze]

im going to give this a try with a Seriatapora and various caps i've got.

We'll see what happens.

[3.99AfterTaxes]

I'm doing it right now.

Here's one pic:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/103/hanging18er.th.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hanging18er.jpg)

This piece has had six month's of growth time starting from a 2" frag. It's more than eight times its original mass now.

The test piece I left mounted regularily is about half the size.