Well I promised an unveiling...

[brandon429]

Pics coming in about 30 minutes.

[JellyTheory]

Ohhhhh the agony of waiting! Stop being a tease and post some pics! ;)


-Chris

[TooFar2Sea]

Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think of stability in terms of years, not weeks. Your tiny tank will be deemed stable if it lasts that long. I wish it well, don't get me wrong, but long term survival of the animals is what determines success.
I am a bit surprised by your choice of coral. In such a small environment I would think it best to select slow growing corals that do not need to be pruned back. Green Star Polyps, mushrooms, and leathers are the last three I would have picked. Putting a leather in seems to liken to raising an elephant in a phone booth. It might fit when small, but not for long.
Good luck with your project and I do hope it succeeds. Keep us posted. The fact that you are willing to spend $50 for the LEDs proves your dedication (or obsession, I get them mixed up). We do need people to press the boundaries if we are to keep this hobby growing and thriving (it is, isn't it?).

[brandon429]

Obsession clearly.

Keep em coming, I like to hear from people who know about reefs-- I figure the more input I have the less likely I am to overlook some detail that would kill the system.

Obsession for sure.



2far, I am also looking for species that are just plain simple, like the shrooms and gsp. What other low light species can you think of that do not require direct feeding...

b429

[yrureefing]

So, where is the pics?:D

[brandon429]

the color was all messed up by the lighting, I had to turn some off or the webcam was just all white. These at least show proportion, I put my cordless phone right next to it to show you the size. Check out those bulkheads thx home depot!

[brandon429]

/

[JaneDoe]

Brandon429 you are my nano hero! :thumbsup:

[brandon429]

I have my idea on something and now is a good time to try. I bet that using DuplaPlant 24 drops made in Germany for planted tanks would have the most awesome effects on corals (zooxanthellae) The box says you can add it to reefs and from what Ive seen in my planted tanks this stuff is the best.

For its price, this stuff is the single best mixture I have ever seen for growing anything that is photosynthetic. I bet caulerpa tax. would fix it up quickly. will order some let u know

b429

[brandon429]

The webcam just wont take detailed pics, I need my friends digital for that. Each coral that is brightly lit is a light smear


***Note the scaling I will use in the mini reef, still not through stocking yet. When you try to describe it without the pictures, people think I am taking a medium sized coral and forcing it into a small box, most assume the system will die or the animals will feel crunched inside the enclosures. With proper scaling I assure you they wont. This is simply not the case when you are dealing with vital space in terms of life support-- As long as the space you have performs vital functions such as oxygen transport, waste removal, nutrient transport, light exposure etc then its enough to live comfortably in.

As the pictures show the ratio of substrate to water column, LR to water column and space to add more macroalgae and small coral frags, it does not appear any different than a normal sized reef. Matter of fact, I bet I could have posted this frontal view as a five gallon nano and it would have looked like it due to the scaling. It is actually about 5 inches tall and about 3-4 cups in fluid volume for the part of the system in the pic. Reefs are the best IMO when they are all purpled out/.
Give me three months, maybe even fo'




b429

[JaneDoe]

B429-
I don't have much experience when it comes to macro algae. I have a refugium filled with spaghetti algae (does not go sexual) for my 72 gallon tank. Am I understanding you correlty that you want to feed the macro to promote growth? Is that why you would use the phytoplex? Or is it for the benafit of the coral? :)

I have turtle grass in my tank and I have seen a great improvment in it's growth, and with very postive side affects for my softies, using Inland Seas, Biotrace. It is a trace element & vitamin supplement. I belive it is used for marine planted tanks and soft coral as well. Maybe that is something you would want to look into.
I hope more experienced people can chime in and add on to this.

[TooFar2Sea]

You're in a bit of a tight spot (pun intended) when you select corals for the tissuebox nano. By definition, any fast and easy to grow coral if kept happy will grow, fast and easy. GSP, mushrooms, and leathers might be the last three things I would list, but they also might be the only three on the list, too. I can think of some other smaller types of coral but am not sure how they would fare under your lights. Stick with what you have and make sure to plan for growth with your placements. I also like to have the "problem" of a coral growing too large!
As for the macro, I believe the lighting can be a key factor. How is your refugium lit? A stronger light will encourage growth. I would think the fertilizer idea is either really good or really bad. Its really good if it causes the macro to grow and suck out the nitrate stuff faster. It would be really bad if it replaced the nitrate stuff in the macros diet and they no longer "sucked".

[lizbeth]

Very interesting Brandon! What type of pump are you using and how is it plumbed?

[Nano-Neophyte]

That is one amazing little tank .. very cool.

[brandon429]

The refugium is lit by an azoo palm light, it is very bright and about 7000 kelvin rating. I have to turn it off with this webcam because it over powers it.

The plumbing: a 3/8 inch line connected to a small pwrhd in the refugium, output is top left hand side from the front. Larger 1/2 inch outflow pipe accepts water as it rises to the output opening (top right bulkhead). There is a limitation to the amount that will pushed through the outflow without gravity flow. its still enough that a tiny xenia frag is waving around all opened.

I think the name is phyto plex but I was thinking the macro special supplements might contain some extra iron/mg/s. Basically like marine plant fertilizer, I use it in my fw planted bowls and it keeps them very green.

I would love to see a pic of spaghetti algae.

b429

[chess_wizard]

can we have more information on the nights? schematic ect... I would be intrested in doign a simular project but a little larger.

[JaneDoe]

B429

I wish I had a good shot of my spaghetti macro but I found a thread that has a great picture. HTH
http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93866&highlight=Spaghetti

[Pinecone_Jeff]

I'm not sure about the fertilizer or phytoplex additives to encourage macro algae growth. After all, isn't the macro algae in there to take up excess nutrients?

Look at it this way, my 10 gal nano has 3 fish in it (2 ocellaris and a royal gramma). These 3 guys produce quite a bit of nutrients and because of that, my grape caulerpa grows like mad. I don't add anything in my tank except food (which probably contains plenty nutrients for the caulerpa as it breaks down), top off water, and some water changes.

My only concern with adding more nutrients would be unwanted algae blooms. But if your nutrient levels are going to be low anyway (I don't think you're going to add a fish), then maybe adding nutrients would be okay. I would just take it slow and try it without additives for a while and see what happens. Try messing with the light (intensity, duration) as TooFar2sea mentioned. The last thing I would experiment with is adding nutrients.

But hey, don't let me talk you out of experimenting! I'm just trying to toss in a possible snag in your nano's development. Good for you for trying to keep this tiny tank. It looks cool and I think it's a worthy attempt!

And hurry up and get your friend's digi cam already! I think we all wanna see some clear pictures of your project! :D

Keep up the good work and please keep us posted about your progress. :)

[mx_tang]

I think that you can also use supplements/additives to the tank also, granted that everything is proportional. Although it does take a little math and stoichiometry to figure out how much calcium/alk, etc to add into 3 cups of water vs 300 cups of water. All you need to buy is a micropipet from any lab supply store. The ones in my lab go down to 1uL, which is a pretty small unit. You figure a standard drop (20mL/drop) has about 20,000uL. You can get a 10uL pipet for a much more reasonable price. Now that you can dose correctly, that part is out of the way.

If you don't want to worry about alk shifts, maybe you might want to look into the Seachem Onyx for the substrate. I heard they have a buffering capacity and they release some minor trace elements. As to what they release, I haven't a clue, but it originated from the Flourite line for planted tanks. Maybe that's an idea instead of a mini calcium reactor. And besides, your GSP's, mushrooms, and finger coral aren't going to be uptaking that much calcium. You can get live rock rubble from your LFS for free, in most cases. Then, just build up little structures with these small broken pieces. What's the equation for amount of live rock/ouce of water again? An ounce of LR per cup of water? LOL

Once you start getting crazy coralline algae growth, you can make a mini algae magnet with neodymium magnets you buy from Ebay. You can get tiny 1/4" watch battery sized magnets, get some velcro for one, felt for another, and you're set. If you're worried about the inner magnet, just coat it with some sort of super glue or non toxic substance.

I know that you said that the tank(s) are covered almost airtight, but you might still get evaporation. Maybe you can guestimate the amount of evaporation, then buy a burette and stopcock to administer topoff water. 50 and 100mL burette's are the most common.

I wouldn't worry about water changes. Whenever you test the water for nitrate or something, you'll be taking enough water out to fill up those test tubes. I'd say if you test your water once a week for calcium, nitrate, alk, and pH, then you're going to lose about half a cup of water. Just make sure you have a batch of mixed up saltwater to replenish your system. You wouldn't want your pumps to run dry while you're testing water, right?


I don't know what type of pump you're using, but I know that the microjet line makes some really small pumps. The Tetra typhoon series are also tiny (1.5"x1.5"x2") and have have an adjustable flow 30-75gph. You might be able to rig a pump into some drip line or some microsprinklers. I ran into some the other day and thought they were kind of cool. They range from 90, 180, to 360 degree spray patters. You might even find some microsprinklers that can spray a stream, but in a circle, making a mini wavemaker. I found some neat little ones in this link:
http://www.mrdrip.com/microsprinklers.htm

The refugium is a good idea. I think that the caulerpa would export some of the things that you don't want to have in the tank, but they might also exhaust beneficial elements just as quick. I think that Liebig's Law of The Minimum still applies to a nano tank, no matter how little. Therefore, I still think that you need to add some elements to the system. The caulerpa can only grow only as fast as the most deficient element(s) it needs to survive, right?

If you need to prune your corals, caulerps, etc, I know that bonzai tree tools work wonders. They're really sharp and handy, so you can prune with ease. I'm sure a dissecting razor blade would achieve the same result.

I'm a little worried about your temperature fluxes between night and day. The makers of the Iceprobe have an inline chiller for residential drinking water systems. It's suppose to hook up to an RO line and can easily cool a tissue box of water. You'd obviously need to also buy a single/double stage controller to make sure that you don't make it a box of ice cold water. Here's the link I found halfway down the page:
http://jonahsaquarium.com/chillcoolworks.htm

As for the heating, maybe you can put the entire tank under a heating pad, which is also connected to a single/double stage controller. Although, that's not such a good idea because if it gets wet, etc, it'd be really dangerous. Maybe a blowdryer connected to controller...but it could warp the tissue box. I'm sure you'll figure something out for this problem.

Mike

[LiquidShaneo]

I have no direct experience w/ Biotrace, but a number of people on the Reefkeepers mailing list have used it for growing turtle grass. Do a search for "Biotrace" on http://www.escribe.com/pets/reefkeepers and I believe Capman was one that using Biotrace. You can purchase it from Inland Aquatics. I've thought about setting up a turtlegrass tank off the main tank and if I do, I plan to use this stuff.

However, I am uncertain why you would want to add something to your femto-reef (smaller than pico) to make Caulerpa grow when you have the Caulerpa there for nutrient export. Maybe I'm missing something tho...

hth

Shane

[mx_tang]

I think b429's reasoning behind adding fertilizer, etc is that even caulerpa needs some essential elements other than just the nutrients being exported. If you give the caulerpa these extra elements, the nutrient export system will be just that much more effective. For example, let's say that the deficiency is iron. You have 0ppm iron in the tank, but have 5ppm nitrate and .1ppm phosphate. If you add a bit of iron, the nutrient export system will be able to take up this bit of iron PLUS some of the nitrate and phosphate, therefore lowering the net nitrate and phosphate levels Of course, I don't know uptake rates for caulerpa offhand, but that's the basic principal of Liebig's Law of The Minimum. This nutrient export system, however, also will compete with the beneficial life forms that need some of these elements too, of course.

Mike

[brandon429]

Thats just what I was thinking mike. But you know, Ive said the same thing about planted tanks and if I dont dose my 75g planted and assorted planted bowls they eventually wither without addition of iron etc. Then I walk into the mall and see their planted display that they do not fertilize or CO2 inject and its just as lush as mine that gets that stuff. Sheesh. I think a major difference is the fact they are stocking heavily so I bet it makes up for lack of CO2/nutrient (Fe,Mg,S) availability. Yep I would like to make NO3 the lacking factor so that it is always utilized quickly.

Shane I could not think of a term smaller than pico. Thanks!
Femto definately sounds better than a whatever/tiny tiny reef.

b429

I was concerned about heating issues too, but the powerhead keeps it at 83 constant inside my house thatis 74-76 ambient temp. I use a fan to blow on it during the day and it puts it at 80 which I like. It wont go any lower than 80 onits own, so during the winter that will help. I was very suprised how much heat these little pumps make. At first I didnt like it, but I can make use of it.

[mx_tang]

b429, how many watts is the pump? Also, what other electrical devices are in there other than lighting. And what is the exact capacity of this tank again?

As far as trying to limit nitrate and phosphate, I'd say that you really need to experiment with another femto-reef clone with everything in there, less the corals and crab. This way, you know how much dosing you'll have to do. In fact, if you made a second tank and had it on a maintenance schedule a week in advance compared to the actual femto-reef, you could avoid overdosing, crashes, etc. Make a log book of everything you did and see what happens. That might be a failsafe that I didn't consider, but then your cost will be double of what you originally intended. On a good note, once you do find a proper dosing/maintenance schedule, both femto-reefs could be full blown reefs, or as full blown as a few cups of water can get.

Mike

[brandon429]

I would say the total volume is about 6-8 cups of water. Each plastic box is 5 inchesx4 inchesx4inches.

The little pump is a _______ 404. ?Not sure about name brand. It is the smallest pwrhd I could find.

Am I the only one who looks forward to breaks at work so I can check for reefcentral replies?!?!
b429

There are also two azoo palm lights (7watt7700K), One light with LED array. They get pretty warm but I first let it run overnight without them and it was at 83 the next day. The fan keeps that in check now. Have you ever heard of a pwrhd that runs without much heat. Mine is currently set to 30 gph so maybe if there is one thats lower its less hot.

I like the idea about log books. I think I will set up a book on pH and ALk shifts for the femto reef. After a couple weeks it will give a good feel for the binding rates

(Shane did you just coin a new term>!>femtoreef) Calcium I will just dose by feel. I use reefcrystals so its pretty good right off. I dont need to maintain much more than 380-400 for this system

I use the dipstick method for dosing Ia!! Meaning I dip a small plastic stick into seachems yellow bottle and take it out and dip the stick back into the tiny femto. I never had to test for Ca or Ia in the reefbowl I just have a good feel for those two.

B429

[LiquidShaneo]

I guess I just might have coined a new term...lol. :D If you can get it down to a thimble sized reef I'd call it an atto-reef (micro=1e-6, nano=1e-9, pico=1e-12, femto = 1e-15, atto=1e-18)! Somewhere in there you probably could coin an "angstrom-reef" (1 angstrom = 1e-10)... :D

Shane

[mx_tang]

I just checked the Tetra Typhoon Category 1 pump and it runs at 4 watts. It also has a 3/8" and y outlet fitting, which is exactly the size of your bulkhead(s) oddly enough. I don't know if your pump is more or less efficient than this pump, but it's what I have in my tank. I also have some spares that I was planning on using for refugiums.
Here was the link:
http://www.petsmart.com/fish/shopping/water_pumps/products/product_13062.shtml

Mike

[brandon429]

Mike that pump is an awesome recommend. I will try one, there is a petsmart here in town. Thanks, thats why the internet rules you can get everyones experimental data and give your system the best chance of survival.

Atto Reef is a cool term. If that one guy really has an ounce reef that would qualify.

b429

[mx_tang]

No problem b429. If you can't find it locally or cheaper than $15, I've got a few that I can sell to you for what I got them for a while back. Keep us posted as far as the progress of your tank.

Mike

[brandon429]

The sealing is great on the femtoreef. It hasnt evaporated at all nor salt creep in 4 days so I think that was my major concern for long term stability, salinity shifts. Ive tried to account for capillary action etc by wrapping the top part of the tank in teflon tape to seal the lid on.

Instead of constantly lighting the refugium, I added a few sprigs of c. taxifolia to the main tank and I currently counter light the refugium, Id like some ideas here. The refugium still operates continuously though because it gets windowsill light in the daytime. I am mainly concerned about stressing that palm light by running it continuously. It is the right spectrum I can at least say that, my caulerpa are growing measurably by the day and bubbling at the end of the day. Those small frags in the reef chamber have more than enough oxygen. Its a neat balance to think of, the cubes are filled to the top and sealed with no gas exchange. You dont want to over-oxygenate and you dont want it to get anoxic at night. Fun fun fun ---The corals in here do not hesitate to open and extend nicely... been feeding dt's by three drops also to encourage microfauna.

Im willing to bet the femtoreef will go 2-3 weeks between water changes because the fixative action of macros is so effective, and Im not stocking with items that strip the water column of nutrients too quickly such as hard corals. A light dosing every now and then should help things along but overall its a very very simple system to maintain.

b429

[kennerd]

Hey, Brandon: you are TOO MUCH, kiddo!

OK, here's a few things you might consider:

1. I will look at the actual additives, but I know I've mentioned before that I only use Resea Success additives in my nanos. They all are dillutedor concentrated to use the same ml/gal for each additive. Aside from the Calcium +3 and BUff additives, I also use Green, which is a macro fert. It only requires a whopping .5 ml / week in a 10 gal, so a few drops would be fine for your little feller. I will look at the label by morning, get back to you, and even mail you some as a test, if it's something you're into.

2. If you are going to keep a log, check out this site:

Efishtank (http://www.aquaserve.com/wetnet/default.asp) You can enter your parameters in a quick data-entry format with dates, and the site will track and graph everything. Might be great to share with the group.

3. I will post a pic tomorrow of spaghetti algae. I have a good closeup of a batch I took while shooting a pic of my coral banded shrimp. Looks like very tight, curly hair, if you catch my drift, without being offended. Grows very quickly, and also does not attach itself to rocks/substrate like c. serrulata, c. racemosa, etc.

OK, I'm off to bed: check in in the AM from the office.

Ken

[kennerd]

OK, here's the description from the Red Sea Fish Pharm, Ltd. Marine Success Green label:

Marine Success Green ia a scientifically formulated enrichment solution containing iron and manganese to stimul;ate and maintain growth of higher algae. It also provides all the other minor and trace elements required for macro algae like Caulerpa and Halimeda species. These algaes not only improve the aesthetic aspects of the marine aquarium, they also play an important role in maintaining a stable aquarium ecosystem by removing unwanted nitrate and phosphate from your aquarium. They also produce oxgen and secrete vitamins into the aquarium water. Marine Success Green does not contain nitrate or phosphate.

Dosage: Add 1 teaspoon (0.17 fl.oz. (US) - 5ml) for each 60 gallons (240 liters) of aquarium water per week.

[brandon429]

efishtank is awesome, Im using it now

[brandon429]

Thanks Ken,


I get paid this week so I will go to LFS and get some of that Marine Success Green. MY lFS has it, I called. Thanks for the info and no I wouldnt be offended! My humor is violently twisted, I just have to keep it at bay or they would kick me off this site for being a psycho. Otherwise I would make funnier postings--:)


I did use however some of my iron based fw supplements and they are working great. I didnt add much, but the c. tax is putting out one new complete leaf per day. Its so amazing how fast they grow, I can check at lunch on a bud and it will have two/three fronds (?) by the end of the day. I just felt like they wouldnt be able to keep up good fixation without supplements from the other major categories (Fe,Mg,S etc)--things that aren't secreted in the reef. I would rather use a marine supplement though for POM. thats a new one, peace of mind .

Ken you are a nice guy despite your avatar. I always pictured you as a mean football player!!

he he

It just dawned on me that I have invented a palmtop reef (ie smaller than desktop) Maybe its been done before but I aint seen one here in Lubbock Texas
b429

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Man! All this stuff about additives just for plain old caulerpa! Blows me away about all the stuff you can learn right here on RC!

I've never had a problem growing caulerpa in either of my tanks. They grow much faster than I'd like (cuz I hate clipping them... what a PITA). Do you think that if my caulerpa is growing fast, it's doing what it's supposed to in terms of utilizing excess nutrients. Or do you guys think that it could be using these nutrients more efficiently if additives were used, such as the ones you've mentioned?

[kennerd]

With a name like Ken O'Brien, are you surprised that I'm a Giants fan??

The avatar is more of an indication of what I look like at work most of the time...check the occupation & you'll catch my drift. Besides, the Felix the Cat was a little too happy-looking.

Truth be told, I will only remain MILDLY impressed until you plumb a pair of juice boxes together with the supplied straws.:D

OK, here's a pic of the spaghetti macro. Be advised that,once it gets into a main tank, even the smallest bits grow into long strings, so it may be hard to eradicate from a tank where the little snips can get lost. Don't think you'll have much of problem losing anything in your little system.

[kennerd]

Well, I would tend to think that helping the macro grow more quickly would utilize more of the nutrients you are attempting to export, as well as produce more of the o2 you are attempting to produce. It's one thing to have a clump of macro of a particular size, but if you can get it to continusouly grow to that size more quickly and trim it back, you are using more "macro fuel" or nutrients.

I think a more important study would be in figuring whether or not the additional iron, manganese and other trace metals take the place of the nitrate & phosphate we are trying to export. Then again, if the addition of these elements causes the macro to grow twice as quickly, but only absorb, say 2/3 of the nitrate/phos, we are still ahead.

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Really interesting, Kennerd. I'd be into doing this experiement but I don't have the time, money, or energy to take on something like this. I wish! Holding down 2 jobs kinda sucks. Oh well, I gotta pay for this salty habit somehow, right? :D

[mrcr4888]

Man unbilevable keep us posted.
How much did it cost total to build it?
I havent had much eperince with adidtives but I would be careful about them.
How on earth are you giong to get the right doseage for such a small tank.




Good Luck!

[brandon429]

Hey thanks man. Each time I build an experimental ecosystem I always end up buying unnecessary parts. This time I spent a few extra on white LED's that I dont now like, I can get a much better spectral output with intensity by using azoo palm lights. Not that LEDs wont work, but I could use the spare space on my mini light board to house more LED actinics and save the daylight work for the palm light. Better overall output. So, in the future I can build them for about 70 bucks not counting dosing supplies.

The way I approach dosing for all my microsystems is this:

I like to dose lightly, maybe even undercutting the ideal rate for the first few weeks chiefly because a tank with lots of LR and water and maybe one tiny leather coral and a couple GSPs doesnt pull much from the water. I start my mini reefs out with very low stocking rates and build slowly, along with the dosings. Calcium tests work just as well on a 8 cup reef as they do a 150, so if I ever have a question I just test. If I wanted to be very careful I would dose a 5 gallon water bottle and add from there... but 3-4 drops of seachem's blue Ca is just right per week for this system Ill bet. After there is much encrusting, ie fixing of carbonate and calcium outside what my corals predictably do, I may test everyday for Ca+ for a week after I have a mature system to get a feel for the binding rates of that particular mineral/nutrient. After that testing week from there on out I dose accordingly to what it used in that week for the rest of the time, increasing slightly if I add more coral****Mainly done by feel and what I see in color, extension from the polyps. Same thing for Iodide and the others.

Very unspecific dosings I know, but I have developed a feel for nutrient consumption in these particular micro reef systems. It came for meticulously testing the reefbowl all the time because people had me scared it would crash. Nonsense!!!

I tested for every known parameter and now all those teskits are getting dusty. The reefbowl has used for the past 6 months: bi monthly water changes, weekly: 2mL seachem calcium, 3 drops Ia (iodide rather), 2mL reef carbonate liquid and dosings of DT's a few times a week. Also add 1-2 mls reef plus or whatever that broad spectrum vitamin supplement is...

But mainly, its the stocking of my systems that makes dosing easier. I mean, if I was growing sps I would be alot more accurate but you just dont have to for many things I stock with.

b429

[brandon429]

I wanted to ask you guys whoever uses lit refugiums (macro algae scrubbing) if you would discuss pros and cons to:

--Constant equal lighting of the refugium for max photosynthetic activity, max fixation rates of nitrogenous waste

--Full power counterlighting at night and moderate window light power for the day when small items in the tank are making their own oxygen...meaning there is still no dark cycle in the refugium

--Darking the refugium completely during the day and running it full power at night when the reef lights are off.


I am concerned about stressing the macro with a constant day cycle, and having to use my little palm light so much. I think it will wear out the little ballast.

thanks,

b429

[mx_tang]

I don't think that an algae needs the same photoperiod and day/night cycles as higher ordered plants and corals. However, they're not even subjected to 24/7 lighting in nature, so unless you want to put up a Walmart or Circle K sign on top of the femto-reef, I don't think it's all that necessary.

Your constant lighting means that you'll have both lights on at the same time, right? This would, in a way maximize oxygenation and plant activity (uptaking nutrients, respiration, etc), but then at night the exact opposite occurs. You'll incur a defecit in oxygen and increased levels of waste (nitrate, phosphate, etc) during the blackout period.

24/7 refugium lighting and an on/off cycle for the main tank will alleviate some of the consequential spikes that a complete day/night cycle would give. However, there would still be a difference between day and night, having the day uptaking more nutrients, oxygenation, etc (assuming caulerpa is in the main tank as well).

The reverse light cycle of the refugium and main tank would be nice too, but I don't know if 24/7 refugium lighting would be better. There must be a point of diminishing returns where adding an extra hour of light does not reduce the waste or adds a sufficient amount of oxygen into the tank. I don't want to say that 24 hour lighting is twice as efficient as 12 hour lighting, but then again, it could be more than that.

Here's food for thought. We burn fat in our bodies through exercising after about 20 minutes. So, if we quit at 20 minutes, we burn 0 fat. At the 40 min mark, half the time we spent exercising is burning fat. At 60 min, this means that 2/3 of the time, we burnt fat. And at 80 min, we spent 3/4 time burning fat. Alright, if we compare the 20 min mark with 40 min, then there's a drastic improvement (0min vs 20min fat burning). However, the real kicker is comparing the 40 min mark with the 80 min mark (20 min vs 60 min fat burning). We ran twice as long, burned three times as much fat in this instance. Running twice as long in for two different time intervals gave drastically different results.

I think when we initially turn on the lights, there's some lag time to get that photosynthetic machinery back up to 100% efficacy. Therefore, it would be much more efficient to have a longer cycle than many shorter cycles. Yet, we need to remember when the algae has reached its threshold for converting wastes and photosynthesizing, so we don't have to waste all this time lighting them. If 24/7 lighting isn't detrimental to the algae, but it's not further helping them export wastes, the worst case scenario is a waste of electricity.

I have a new idea, though. What if you were to build 3 compartments, er, I mean 3 tanks joined together. The main tank would be on from 6am to 6pm. One of the refugiums would be on from 12 noon until midnight. Another refugium turns on at midnight to 12 noon. This would be a really great solution because every minute is accounted for, and technically, is lit equally. Of course, this is under the assumption that both refugiums are identical in their size, plant growth rate, plant mass, and the list could go on. You still would have to spend the same amount of electricity as if you only had 1 refugium and lit it 24/7, but your algae and lights get to rest for 12 hours. It couldn't hurt to do things this way, and in fact, it might even be the MOST stable out of all the ones I've mentioned.

Hope this didn't confuse anybody,
Mike

[kennerd]

Well, given the size and transparency of your entire system, as well as the proximity of the two tanks to one another, you would have to build a light-blocking divider to have seperate light cycles.

I run my refugia for 14-14.5 hours, or 2-2.5 hours longer than the actinics and 4 hours opr so longer than my dayligths. Seems to be working fine. Given the fact that both tanks are in my bedroom and dressing rooms respectively, overnight lighting is somewhat out of the question:p

[lizbeth]

Originally posted by kennerd
Well, given the size and transparency of your entire system, as well as the proximity of the two tanks to one another, you would have to build a light-blocking divider to have seperate light cycles.


The whole thing could be put on one of those Rubbermaid spice turntables with little walls to block the light! That way it could be easily and safely viewed from all sides.

[kennerd]

OR: Get a 1 RPD (rev per day) motor under the same divided setup, and only run ONE LIGHT SOURCE to which each of the sections spends roughly 12 hours exposed.

[brandon429]

Can the motor be used to slide to light cover? Ive never made a setup like that but the automation would be awesome. One thing for sure, the less lighting I use the less heat I get. I currently run at 80-83 degrees I am hoping a change to your micropowerhead will remedy that. waiting for some dough to put into the femto. payday t-5 days and counting....

I also liked the idea of joining three or more cubes together and counterlighting them as needed. That would make for many different little environments working on the same water supply, I am intrigued by that.

be back after I get to the ole cubicle

b429 (7:10 am)

[kennerd]

Actually, I was referring to the light remaining stationary, with the entire setup on a revolving lazy-susan.

Interestingly enough, one of our club members custom-made a water distribution system prototype for his 65 gal: simply put, it's a 6 portal hub on the bottom, with tubes that will run to various places in the tank. There is a tall, enclosed axle that extends above the water line with the motor on top. The axle slowly turns a butterfly valve in the base, so that only two of the ports are flowing at a time. He plans to put it in first, then cover with his rockwork.

Anyway, the reason for the explanation: The motor is a 1 RPH (rev per hour), runs only 4 watts, but puts out a TON of heat. He had to heat-sink AND fan the thing. Strange, but it must have something to do with the torque rating of the motor.

[brandon429]

sorry about the misundertandin'--- now I see what you mean about the turntable. For lack of better detail, every once in a while great detail can slip right past me.

he he

b429

[brandon429]

This thread is the original post, original release of the first femtoreef. It will be neat to post updates from time to time.


Changes soFar:

Fused chambers, Lee's twin betta hex is the perfect design. A powerhead set on level one is almost too much, but with LR deflection it is managed.

[brandon429]

---

[brandon429]

kind of a re-post. Just wanted it tagged to this thread so it would be in line with other posted updates (future)

[mrmatt]

Hey Brandon, what is the divider between the two compartments of the reef made of?
-Matt

[brandon429]

A Lee's betta hex has a plastic divider in between the two chambers, the minijet pump is situated on one side of the plastic divider and an outflow grid has been cut into the other side allowing water to pass into the refugium side at a quick rate. Next time you see a Lees betta hex on a shelf, take it down and look at it and youll get many ideas for setting up a reef if the initial size doesnt scare you off! But really, a sealed lid has done wonders for system stability.

Brandon