Banggai fry release

[keith clarke]

Much to my delight I counted 2 fry in the seagrass aquarium when the lights turned on this morning. The brooding male is captive raised. He is from one of only two broods produced by my wild caught pair this year. He was born on April 28th making him seven months old today. It would be difficult to imagine that he was from the other brood that was released on June 3rd of this year.

He held the clutch for 28 days. The fry are the smallest I've seen. Usually day old fry are one centimeter or larger. These new fry are well considerably shorter than one centimeter. Actually, they are slightly bigger than the live mysis mysis, but smaller than the largest amphipods. How's that for quantitative? ;) My guess is that they are 8mm.

The male still has a mouthful so I expect more later today, tonight or tomorrow.

Have a look at some early pix,
http://members.home.net/coralreef/BCfry_nov28.html

Enjoy your cigar! The chocolate variety for all the non-smokers! :D

keith

[bigben]

Congrats, Keith!!!

I only got the last two pics to show up, but they're great!!! Keep the pics coming!! :D

Ben

PS--I'm smoking a "virtual cigar"...

[Edited by bigben on 11-28-2000 at 05:12 PM]

[keith clarke]

Thanks Ben, I just add food and watch ;)

Is the link missing or not working? Here it is again,
http://members.home.net/coralreef/BCfry_nov28.html

keith

[bigben]

Keith,

Are you feeding them artemia nauplii?

Ben
PS--Maybe it's my slow connection, but I still only get the last two pics to come up. The top one has an [x] in the corner.

[FMarini]

Special K:
As always ....congrats....the last poster is correct..the top 2 photos don't load.
Thats quite an interesting point you make....in that the male held these fry extra long and release very small fry. Seem to me that either the eggs were not developing quickly, or you got a runted litter here. Most likely this is due to the immaturity of the animals, and /or egg quality(feeding maybe?). The fry photo looks great and while he maybe small, he look healthy. Have you noticed them eating yet?
frank

[keith clarke]

Ben, Frank,
Thanks for pointing out the problems with the web page. What can I say about @home that you haven't already heard?
I've moved the page to http://www.geocities.com/banggai/BCfry_nov28.html

Feeding at the moment consists of fresh hatched and day old enriched artemia nauplius. Fry are definitely striking on these foods. I had hoped that fry would be able to feed on the natural live foods in the tank, but that will have to wait until the fry grow out.

Saw a few more fry this morning at first feeding. :)

keith

[keith clarke]

If you have a fairly quick connection, a good video card, a decent monitor, and Quicktime player software, then you may want to have a look at movie I just took of the fry. It's about 2mb .

http://www.fishroom.com/~marine/movies/banggai_fry/PB290012.MOV

keith

[bigben]

:D AWESOME! Thanks a bunch, Keith!!!

Ben

[billsreef]

Cool :D

[keith clarke]

It is difficult to obtain an accurate count of the number of fry released to date. There are four that I am certain of and can always find in the same general location. The tank has lots of cover so there may be others lurking. I suspect, though haven't seen evidence, that the fry are eating live foods found in the tank. After 8 hours overnight without food offered by me their gut is full and pink.

This morning one of the fry swam about the entire tank. Up high in the water column above the algae beds and down low at the sand bed. At one point it swam next to the male, eye to eye, mouth to mouth. The male made no effort to chow down on the fry, but he may still be brooding (day 30).

Then the female swam over to investigate. She was within easy striking distance (1 cm) for a while, but swam off without making any gesture of aggression. I believe she is either hungry or well fed on live food as she has not been seen eating offered foods lately.

This is only one observation and certainly not enough to recommend leaving fry with adults, but...

One other observation for the moment. The fry remain close enough to the glass that I can often use a magnifying lens to view them. They seem to have a brown coating in patches on the front half of their body. I don't recall seeing this in previous broods, but may not have had the opportuntiy either. Any thoughts on this coating?

kei

[canuckreef]

hey Keith...congrats on the offspring
we had a good chat about them yesterday and i guess as you mentioned you expected the brood..
well lets see i am just setting up the tank..so say in a months time..i will be ready to make them a nice home...!!
in a nice new reef...
i hope you enjoy the SouthDown sand as well.. so far i have heard that there are great results with it..

thanks for the advice as well that you gave me..

so save me a cardinal or so... and then i will give them a great home on a canuck reef..!!

.

[keith clarke]

Canuckreef,
It was my pleasure meeting you and taking some sand off your hands ;) Thanks again! I have a few juveniles remaining from the wild caughts. You're welcome to one of them when your system is ready.

The male is definitely still brooding. Gonna call him the Energizer Brooder...he keeps going and going. Today is day 31! At lights on I was able to see at least one pair of eyes and a tail in his mouth. I'm no longer worried that his mate knocked him up again before I had a chance to fatten him up.

Still only 4 fry that I can find. A disappointing brood to say the least. Poor brood size might be a result of the limited capabilities of the parents due to their age.

keit

[bigben]

Any more good news, Keith?

It looks like my female could be approaching the male again, but I don't think he's interested right now. I'm happy with his decision since he needs to fatten up a bit more. Take it easy,

Ben

[Ecoli]

Keith,
Could you post a few decent links about cardinal breeding, More precisely about picking out a male and female. I want to try to breed the banggai cardinals. Any other information would also be helpful. And would a 10 gallon tank be big enough to raise the fry until homes can be found for them?

[keith clarke]

One of the central clearing houses for banggai cardinal fish information can be found at http://www.eparc.com/banggai/banggai.shtml
One article not found there is a discussion given on #reefs which includes some gender id assistance.
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/k_clarke_102499.html

good luck,
keith

[Ecoli]

I am planning on using a 10 gallon tank to raise any possible fry. I was just curious as to what I would all need before i begin this attempt. How should i go about setting up the tank. And what type of equipment would be needed to run a clean tank. I was thinking 1 small powerhead. A 3 inch live sand bed. And one nice junk of live rock with some caulpera. What sort of lighting would i need and what would be the most desirable form of caulpera that would grow decently enough to trim for nutrient export. Just trying to get an idea for all costs before I attempt to get a pair of cardinals. And keith, i noticed your link on the EPARC web page.. you wouldnt happen to live in eastern PA and be willing to sell me any cardinals if you happen to have some that you can sex?

[keith clarke]

Hi Ecoli,
Eparc was kind enough to host the cardinal pages. I live in Canada. It is difficult to determine gender of adult fish. Juveniles are even more difficult.

Your 10g setup sounds good. Expect to do regular frequent water changes unless it is a long established system. My seagrass tank has c. prolifera that the banggai hide in. There are other types of caulerpa including two species of c. racemosa that grows quickly enough for nutrient export. The lighting would be determined by the requirements of the algae.

For specifics of the growout tank setup please read Dr. Frank Marini's articles found at EPARC. They cover the requirements in more detail than I could possibly hope to here.

keith

[gas4544]

Ecoli,
I set up a 10-gallon tank as my nursery tank several months ago. I originally went with no substrate, a 50W heater, an air driven sponge filter, a versa-top (AGA glass top), one chunk of live rock, and lots of caulerpa. My original lighting was a 48" long 40W flourescent fixture that I placed over two ten-gallon tanks sitting end to end. The second tank was part of my brine shrimp hatchery.
I raised a brood of twenty-two babies in this tank without any casualties until I overnight shipped them to a buyer in Hawaii. Two of them did not make it.
Since that first batch, my pair of Cardinals has mated several times, but the male has not carried the eggs to full term. Once he went three weeks, then mysteriously aborted that batch. My male is now about four days into carrying another batch.
The nursery tank has since changed a little. It now has a two-inch sand bed, some rubble live rock, a Mini-jet powerhead and a LOA 65W PC light fixture. I have added a couple of snails, some mushrooms, a couple of baby soft corals, some micro-hermits and an emerald crab. It has kind of become a nano reef, although I do plan to use it as a nursery tank when needed.

[bigben]

Good news and bad news.

Good news: Late last night, my bangaii pair spawned again--one month since the last clutch was prematurely released or eaten. Bad news: in three weeks, I will be gone to the future inlaws' house when the fry (if successful) are released. I'm getting someone to take care of the tank and fish, but he won't be able to feed the potential fry several times a day. Would they be ok if heavily fed once a day?

I always try to minimize my presence in the tank when the pair have mated. Should I even clean the glass with the magnet?

Any and all comments are welcomed. Thanks,

Ben

[keith clarke]

Congrats Ben,

If corals had vision I'd clean the glass. ;) Typically I don't bother unless I want to use the camera. Many herbivores, from snails to amphipods, earn a living cleaning the glass. I'm not going to put them out of work. You're probably okay cleaning the glass during the first couple of weeks, but after that you may cause the male to abort. Typically he'll be in hiding anyway.

Once per day feedings are better than none at all. If your tank sitter is going to hatch artemia then a good feeding of fresh nauplius may go a long way. Remember that after 24 hours the nauplius contain little or no nutritional value unless they are fed. They may very well die within 36 to 48 hours without feeding. Unconsumed nauplius could be a source of pollution if more are added than can be eaten in a reasonable period of time. Many other reef tank inhabitants will enjoy the feeding though.

How long do you plan on being away? If there are any live foods in the tank, amphipods, copepods etc, I would expect that a few of the fry will survive if they can avoid becoming dinner for a larger predator.

keith

[bigben]

Thanks, Keith

Actually, there is more good news, because the guy who will watch my tank is experienced in hatching artemia. Also, the bangaii are the only predators of the tank, unless you count a couple of oversized, super clumsy hermits :D My tank is loaded with amphipods and copepods, and I will be gone for a week. I would tell the guy to catch the fry and put them in the sump/refugia, but I don't want him fumbling around with a net in an already cramped 20gal tank. Thanks for the help :)

Ben

[Jamie Shern]

Great to finally find this group. Thanks Frank. I have three breeding pairs now that the dominant pair of my 6/16/00 brood are surprisingly expecting. I kinda hoped they would wait a few more months to be honest. They are in a reef with sixteen of their closest syblings. All hints on catching pregnant males from reefs are appreciated.
Jamie

[Callie]

Jamie,
I have a brooding male that I just moved last night into a 30 gal. He is at day 20. I waited till he was close to release so if he released prematurely fry would still have a chance. He was easy to catch, I used a specimen container (the kind the LFS uses to bag fish). He hid behind a rock, I placed the containers at the exit and just used a finger to gently shoo him in the container. There was no stress, no release, and I didn't have to chase him all over with a net. I think the fact that the container is clear helps to not spook the fish like a net does.
He is now in the 30 gal with some LS, LR, Caulerpa and Halimeda. No other residents in the tank. Eagerly waiting the appearance of fry! :)
Kathy

[bigben]

Congrats, Kathy!! Keep us posted on the fry release :) Sounds like a good plan to move the male into a separate tank for easier monitoring of the fry. Having the male separated will also give you a chance to get him fat before the female tries to spawn again. BTW, welcome to RC (you too, Jamie!)

Ben

[Jamie Shern]

Thanks for the input Callie. Unfortunately my reef is too crowded and cramped to get a specimen container in. The male that was gravid apparently aborted and now another pair is expecting. I don't expect any better luck with him unless I can get them isolated. So the experiment in progress is 18 tank raised syblings (6-7 mo. old) in a 90 reef. Three mated pairs (one expecting) and 12 singles. I have two other wild caught mated pairs in a 55 but have to keep them separated with a divider. So far the degree of territorial agression I expected has not materialized in my 90. They are however under constant surveilance. Anybody want to swap mated pairs or singles with me to add a little depth to my gene pool?