any tips on fragging an elegance

[rjung1]

I have my eye on a nice catalaphyllia jardinei (elegance coral) at a LFS. Problem is it is a little large for my tank. A friend would also like it so we thought maybe we could frag it and both enjoy it. I'm looking for any thoughts/experiences/tips for fragging this species. Thanks.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Break or saw it clean and put a superglue bandage over the cut area so that deep skeleton rot doesn't start on it.

[Reefs_Rock]

rjung1

IMHO trying to break or saw an Elegant coral into two pieces isn't worth the risk of destroying a beautiful coral. Enough of the Catalaphyllia species dies from shipping stress, improper handling and inadequate husbundry by well intentioned hobbyists that to purposfuly breaking or sawing a piece into two pieces because it's too big for your tank is ludicrous.

What is your experience dealing with coral frags? What is the size of your tank? What lighting system are you using? Why has only one other person responded to your enquiry?

There are some very qualified people that monitor these threads and IMO the reason only one other person responded is because the qualified people know it's a waste of time, money and another beautiful piece of coral killed by a hobbyist.

Clearly, we need to police our own ranks or the end of coral collection as we know it is near.

INMO, let it be, so someone with adequate resources and equipment can keep it as it should be, whole!

[rjung1]

Rest easy Reefs, the whole reason I placed this post (and one directly to Anthony Calfo elsewhere on this board - Authors forum) is because I wanted to do my research and not needlessly sacrifice a beautiful coral! True, I didn't receive too many replies here, but my own research lead me to your conclusion: Not a good idea to frag an Elegance. Oh well, I'm setting up another tank and if it is still available I will possible make it the centerpiece of the tank. It deserves it with its waving purple tips!

Thanks for the response; no thanks for the "attitude."

[Frick-n-Frags]

Yowsah!, I was just answering his question, if you notice.

I don't think I would needlessly cut a Cat either because any of those wall corals are risky, but this is still good to know especially when saving a dying one. You have to cut in the good animal and then superglue the cut. For real. Then good flow, low light and let it heal. Any wall Euphyllias work with this too.

Also, if you were going ahead as planned, you would want to get the whole colony happy and growing. Then when it for sure is adding skeleton cut the wall and resettle the two parts nearly where they came from(after supergluing the breaks). THEN when they have both shown the new skeleton growth, from the new polyp end they make, that means they are sealed up again and then you can move one half to the other tank. This could take 6 months depending upon how fast you get it happy and growing.
I saved a bleached dying one from the LFS, it was so bad he gave it to me. Too bad I killed it by burying it. I saved the skeleton because it showed nicely how the new end starts from a receding section of flesh. If the coral is growing it can be broken and it will keep growing.

[Gary Majchrzak]

In regards to fragging that Elegance: I'll second the "Don't do it!"- if you can purchase the coral, get it home and maintain it successfully you have already accomplished something fairly challenging. Purchase a smaller specimen.

[pamsreef]

IMO, your lucky to keep one alive, let alone, after cutting it in two.

Don't do it.

Pam

[Reefs_Rock]

rjung1

I'm looking for any thoughts/experiences/tips for fragging this species. Thanks.

Sorry if you think I have an "attitude" in answering your question. I appoligize for coming across that way. But you clearly asked "any thoughts".

Rather than an attitude, I have a firm conviction that, as hobbyists, responcible husbandry of our resources should be our number one goal. The long term survival of any given speciman, be it coral, invert or fish, should be top priority.

You come across to me as a "newbe" or one without the attiquite equipment for keeping a large piece of coral as you described it. Maybe I did come down hard on you. Again, I appoligize. But simply wanted to firmly make my point.

We don't know each other, so, we can't possibly know each others experience. My experience comes from 55 years of being actively in this hobby as a hobbyist, retail LFS, wholesaler, installation and maintenance and coral propagation.

My next adventure as I retire, (I'm 64), is to set up a coral fragging business in Ft. Pierce, Florida. The property has been found and we are in the process of having a house designed and built, then greehouse built.

I see you are from St, Pete, FL. I would hope to one day meet you as a guest of the greenhouse.

Sincerely

[Gary Majchrzak]

RR: Good luck, sounds like a promising endeavor.If I'm ever in the area, I'm going to look you up!
Hope your ready for the big shift in climate: Madison,WI to St. Pete,FL is about as BIG a difference as you can get,as I'm sure your aware!

[rjung1]

Apology accepted Reefs, and I concur wholeheartedly with your convictions regarding hobbiest's husbandry responsibilities and completely understand your passion. I definately do not have your level of experience and that is why I sought advice from this board. I do believe I have adequate equipment however, just did not have adequate room in my current display. As I stated, I am considering setting up another display in large part to provide for the Elegance specimen's needs. I hope that would demonstrate my seriousness in adequately providing for the coral's needs.

Good luck with your coral farming project. I most definately will stop by. Let us know when you are up and running.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Maybe it is just a matter of skill and experience, in the right focused area.....

Even Fungia and those weird looking brains can be all busted up and grow, if you get the coral happy. ALL corals are intrinsically the same.

If you want to instruct a person correctly, you should tall them that this coral is delicate and should be growing before it is stressed by fragging, and then instruct them to the best of your ability to perform the best fragging possible. And just because you haven't personally done it, don't condemn it as undoable, that hurts the hobby. And, why throw your weight around, so you are in the industry, so what does that have to do with fragging wall corals. How many years have you been doing that?

My goal on this earth is to learn how to frag and propagate coral, any and all coral. I have already started. Guess what, Cataphyllia, wall Euphyllia, Fungia, bubble, etc etc are all coral. Someone has to farm elegance and when they do, problem solved. What are you planning on growing Montipora digitata? Someone has to learn how to do all of this, not just the "been-done" stuff.
Wouldn't it be bad@$$ if there was RR, the elegance king known worldwide as THE propagator of wall corals. Someone will be it, whoever rolls up their sleeves and gets down to it enough. Will it be you? or will it be me? :)

I am Frick-n-Frags :D Eat my dust baby!!!(But I would love to come to Ft Pierce and show you everything I have learned in Dr Fraggenstein's laboratory, any excuse to visit Florida :) )

[Frick-n-Frags]

ps, Isn't this a propagation forum? Isn't the morality forum somewhere else? What did Pamsreef and Gary add to this thread regarding fragging technique for an elegance? What if this had to be done?

Somehow there needs to be a separation between:

Don't even buy the thing if you are a newbie and ***** to your LFS not to get any more because they are scarce anyway.

(which I wholeheartedly would agree with and if he had asked "Should I buy this elegance?" I would have said "No way, they are too touchy for a beginner and don't even think about fragging it)

and: How does one frag an elegance.

So before I make too many enemies here, lets move ahead with the science of it in this forum and leave the rest elsewhere. I am only interested in fragging techniques and propagation techniques.

[Frick-n-Frags]

After re-reading the posts, my one bit of advice for RJ regarding the day you do bring home an elegance is this:

Considering where they are collected from, you would do best to put it in an aged tank(ie 2+ years old) with med light(they love VHO flourescent) and med-low flow.

They eat a lot for their nutritional requirents because the light is lower.(lots of bacteria off of mulm and stuff like that) Typically the coloring of low light animals is more spectacular because they build up pigments deep in their flesh to re-reflect light back through for double the light absorbtion by the zoox.
(I am just repeating what Eric B. said at a talk he gave regarding collecting Euphylls/Cats)

[RalphP]

Hello
I have a small ellegance that has started to receede,2 of the 3 lobes are gone ,the last so far does not look bad.would you suggest waiting to see if it survives or try the fragging method described.Reefs_Rock when will you make the big move it be nice to have a local place for fraggs

[Frick-n-Frags]

Is the receding flesh working its way toward the remaining lobe or has it stopped? Also how fast has this recession occurred. If it is happening fast (like within one month) and it looks like there is no slowing down, then you have to frag it. Remember, this will also traumatize the coral, AND if there is something wrong with general conditions and the coral can't survive anyway, there is no point. But if it is a black-line or deep skeleton rot infection, frag ASAP.

[Reefs_Rock]

Good Morning Everyone:

Well, it seems I've raised the hair on Frick-n-Frags' back. Good! Controversy leads to discussion and discussion leads to new ideas and new ideas lead to progress.

Frick-n-Frags

By your very name, Frick-n-Frags, compulsive fragomaniac, leads me to believe you will be one of the leaders in fragging history when it is written. But at what cost, in the path of destruction of coral, along the way. It is my belief that one must read everything we can get our hands on about the subject before deliberately cutting an animal into two pieces to see if one or the other or both will live. That's why brain surgeons must go through extensive training and study BEFORE operating on there first patient. And how would you like to be their first patient? :( :hammer:

Since no one with any expertise with elegance coral has responded, I'd like to quote Anthony Calfo from page 271 of his very respected work, "Book of Coral Propagation"

As this book intends to address topics of coral propagation, it may very well be true that Catalaphyllia are poor choices for mariculture. I'm inclined to resist the wide scale importation of the animal, withstanding reliable information on sustainability. Catalaphyllia is slow to grow and heal........

And, I'm not suggesting no one should try this experiment. I'm only trying to get across the point that a hobbyist with one inadequate aquarium for the original animal hardly qualifies as the correct person to experiment on these delicate animals.

Some one with adequate facilities will one day come up with a reliable technique to propagate elegant coral, but, it may not be by sawing. It may very well be buy spontaneous spawning of the coral under ideal conditions. Who knows? Not me. Although since I've had success keeping elegant coral, when I get the greenhouse up it will be one of the more delicate corals I'll be working with.

[Reefs_Rock]

RalphP

The offer to purchase a piece of property, 5 1/2 acres, is going out in a day or two. The current owner has agreed to sell at a very fair price. There are only a couple of contingencies, ie building permit for three bedroom home, driveway culvert, etc. The location is about 4miles due West of Harbor Branch Oceanographic, ORA.

Then we will have our floor plan drawn up into building plans and begin construction of our home. After the home is finished we'll make the move to FL from WI and the greenhouse will come shortly after that.

If you want to keep up with our progress the easiest way is to go to our website The Cultured Reef (http://www.theculturedreef.com) and join our "Members Only Club" by entering your e-mail address. Be sure to confirm you membership through the e-mail sent to you in response to your request to join.

Please sign our guest book and place your "Pin" on our map. Thanks.

[Reefs_Rock]

RalphP and anyone else interested:

Elegant coral is one of the corals that benefit from direct feeding of larger pieces of marine derived meaty foods. I feed mine the smallest silverside minnows I can purchase.

Again quoting from Anthony Calfo's book:

Catalaphyllia species have a strong feeding response and are one of the few reef invertebrates that can ingest larger pieces of prepared food.

Considering your coral, so much depends on the conditions the coral has been kept under, by you and your source. How long have you had it, have you ever feed it, the lighting and the general conditions in the aquarium.

Without knowing these and other factors it's hard to say, why, your coral is doing poorly. Except that elegant corals are delicate and not a beginners coral.

Now, this is a piece of elegant that lends itself to fragging experimentation, ie, to try and save it! So, if you are inclined to experiment try Frick-n-Frags suggestion. Then report back to the BB how it worked out. That's how we all learn.

[pamsreef]

Since I was mentioned specifically:

According to the person who started the thread, I don't think that fitting the coral in a tank is a good enough reason to possibly sacrifice an animal.

Pam

[Reefs_Rock]

Pam

Thank you for coming forward with your insight into this discussion.

[Frick-n-Frags]

RR, your sig says it all :D

Just because the Cat CAN eat silversides doesn't in the faintest mean that that is what their natural diet in the wild is. Pretty wide assumption there and a great way to start some goofy rumour like "To keep elegance alive you have to feed them silversides". And I would bet that Anthony would quickly say "I only said they CAN ingest large pieces" why, because it is a big coral.

Also, when I started my reef, there was nothing written except some info by the brilliant German aquarists and they were totally barking up the wrong tree too as it turns out. Anthony Calfo(whom I have had great chats here on RC with and I respect his love of fragging and his awesome knowledge and personality) is my contemporary and not my mentor. There are things that we each know, he just wrote his book first.

I write my book here on RC and I am really loving this forum, this is what I like the best. I can't wait for Anthony to catch wind of this forum and hang out more. We get to be the grease monkeys that put all of EB's et al's info to work and propagate.:D

How do you think human medicine figured these things out for the first time? GROSS! but it had to be done. I'll tell everyone, I have killed a boatload of coral since 1988 when I started my reef. I owe the coral something, and some pieces are going to be sacrificed getting there. But if x number are sacrificed to learn, maybe a hundred thousand times x will be left alone in the ocean someday, and the touchy stuff is the important stuff. I'll be working on non-photo stuff like Dendros soon too. And I am probably going to kill some of them too before I win.

[rjung1]

I have received a reply to a similar post directly to Anthony; his reply can be found here:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102100

Anyway, I had already decided not to frag the Elegance! I do appreciate all the responses received here.

[Reefs_Rock]

Frick-n-Frags

Whoa, settle down there big fella. Don't get your heart rate in an uproar.

First of all......quoting from your post.
"Just because the Cat CAN eat silversides doesn't in the faintest mean that that is what their natural diet in the wild is." I never said that silversides were part of the "Cats" natural diet, only that they need and benefit from supplemental feeding. And, in my experimenting with supplemental feeding of corals, I've used silversides with great success. We know what Anthony Calfo would say, I quoted from his book.

Next quote from your post......
"Anthony Calfo(whom I have had great chats here on RC with and I respect his love of fragging and his awesome knowledge and personality) is my contemporary and not my mentor. There are things that we each know, he just wrote his book first." Well, Anthony is a great person to talk with about the fragging business. He's certainly the most knowledgeable person I know about the business. I'm sure there are others, like yourself I guess, you making the claim of him being your "contemporary and not my mentor". That's a bold statement and not one I'd make lightly. I definitely consider Anthony my mentor even though I've been strictly salt since 1972 and began experimenting with the Lee Chin Eng's theory of saltwater husbandry back then.

I too, have had chats with Anthony but in person, and share in his love of the fragging business and science of it. I was fortunate enough to meet him in person and share pizza and a long chat one afternoon and evening after he was a featured speaker in MI.

And next quote from you.....
"How do you think human medicine figured these things out for the first time?" I hope in modern science's quest to clone they are not sacrificing human life by sawing one into two hoping both will heal.

One more.....
"I have killed a boatload of coral since 1988 when I started my reef. I owe the coral something, and some pieces are going to be sacrificed getting there. But if x number are sacrificed to learn, maybe a hundred thousand times x will be left alone in the ocean someday" How sad a statement that is!!! And, it seems to be with a braggadocios attitude. You don't make the claim, but I'll make the statement, "It's careless attitudes and actions like that, that have the environmentalists up in arms trying to protect the remaining reefs from all collection."

And another.....
"But if x number are sacrificed to learn, maybe a hundred thousand times x will be left alone in the ocean someday" It's true some must be sacrificed to learn but, I'll take a more conservative approach and grow out large numbers of mother corals and frag from them rather than keep importing corals that are already available from good fraggers like Dr Mac and others.

Before the fragging business gets to the point of leaving "a hundred thousand times x will be left alone in the ocean" the reef environmentalist protectors will have stopped our wanton ways if we don't police our own ranks and stop the destruction of the very reefs we proclaim to be trying to protect.

And lastly.....
I am Frick-n-Frags Eat my dust baby!!!(But I would love to come to Ft Pierce and show you everything I have learned in Dr Fraggenstein's laboratory, any excuse to visit Florida. I won't be eating your dust anytime soon. :) Your most welcome to come to FL and visit the greenhouse. I'm sure we'll have a lively discussion there, too. :D

I'm looking forward to it.

[Reefs_Rock]

rjung1

Congratulations! You made a wise choice. I believe we all learned from this post and I thank you for your original post.

Good luck comes from wise decisions not haphazard choices.

Sincerely

[Frick-n-Frags]

RR, I don't think you understand science, or the scientific method. If I were you , I wouldn't say I was a contemporary of Anthony's either, because I don't sense the scientist in you at all. Let me explain a little.
When the unknown is explored mistakes, or learning experiences are made. Killing coral isn't a brag, it is a necessary cost of learning and believe me it wasn't intentional and often very devastating, but you have to go on. I learned a lot from it and now I don't kill much at all. Also, modern medicine had heinous roots in the 1700's and 1800's when they were figuring it out and a lot of people died at the hands of the doctors who were clueless, so stick to reality here. Now you are happy with medicine's progress because someone paid the dues a long time ago and you can make absurd clone jokes.

And I am going to throw my weight around one time here too, I have studied science my whole life ( I have an engineering degree and two minors: physics and biology, marine biology specifically. (ie, I am about 20 hours shy of the bio degree) My best friend is a Phd in plant physiology and we had complete run of incredible labs at RJ Reynolds in Winston-Salem for ten years. I had access to GC's, genetic tagging, micro culturing from cells, and all the scientific equipment to set up a complete lab and his incredible wisdom on plant based biomes (which is what my whole reef theory is based upon, but that's none of your business). He and I in our junior year in school, in 1973, built our own tank and started into salt back then. We have been studying salt ever since, not wholesaling or whatever else. I have two rows of books dedicated to biology and sciences and am currently looking for better macroalgae references.

Pretty theatrical posting altogether(on both our parts actually :D) but your attitude is pretty lame regarding forging ahead into the unknown. Do you have any idea how much coral is processed in the medical industry looking for exotic cures? They grind a lot of 'em up. At least our goal is keeping them alive. That is the only way this stuff can be figured out, whether you do it first or wait for someone else to make the sacrifice and you then can read about it after the fact. I would hope that the attitudes on this forum are of exploration and furthering the knowledge of propagating coral. So you can either wait for Anthony or myself or anyone else to do the "dirty" work and then you can safely read about it or you can be the leading edge, anyway, whatever. You have your path, and I have mine. You remind me of a little mild pet shop owner, whom everybody loves, I remind me of a total hardcore geek totally immersed into the science of it and I don't care if you like me but darn it I am going to learn how it works, in spite of your smokescreening.

My sig is going to be "Only dead fish swim with the current"


Back to the subject Here is a pic of some of my babies (frogspawns) hanging under just VHO actinics.

and sorry, rjung for screwing up your thread. When emotional smoke gets in the way of science, I bum out. RR doesn't get it, but I am trying to learn how to make elegance an ez coral like we are slowly making other corals easier and easier. ps, RR has NEVER killed a coral, so he can flame me about it, ya right! At least I can deal in reality enough to admit it and that something positive could be gained from the loss. Later.

[RalphP]

Hello
Thanks for the reply.I have had it for about 3 months,it started retrackting a month ago.Real quick nothing sloughing off just started shrivilling up.The last lobe has not changed,for the time being i am going to wait and see what happens

Reef_rocks
Nice area you are looking at nice facility at Harbor Branch.Have you gone to the new Smithsonian center in Ft Pierce on Seaway dr?There tanks are starting to look good

[JohnL]

<i><br>Here at Reef Central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please let’s work to insure that Reef Central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.</i>

[Reefs_Rock]

Frick-n-Frags

Holy moly man, don't have a cow!
RR has NEVER killed a coral I didn't say I never killed a coral. That fabrication came from you. You seem to put false thoughts into the conversation about what I said. It's the second time in this thread you did that. Enough!

I am much more conservative than you. If I had killed a boat load of coral getting to where I am, as you stated, I wouldn't spread it around like you are as though it were some sort of badge to wear proudly. I'd hide my head in shame.

I don't think we will ever agree on methodology Frick-n-Frags, so lets just agree we are two different people heading in our chosen direction in life and we're on different roads. You'll probably reach your goal and I'll more than likely reach mine. Let's let it go at that.

If we meet along the way so be it. I'll not be drawing swords on you any further. End of topic.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Right on, Never discuss religion or PHILOSOPHY :)
Like John says "Peace".

I want to only relate one last thing: killing a boatload of coral
Part of my boatload was 8 beautiful Acro heads, 4 of them for well over a year (and they were growing and I had so manyfrags), that died because I had two bogus alk test kits from different mfrs and I assumed they were telling me the truth. I OD'd the alk, lost most of my Montis too. I just told that story to someone elsewhere on RC to let him know that red sea alk tests are not OK and here's why, hopefully I saved him some serious grief. Why is that bragging, I almost frickin packed it in on that one. Let's see, theres also PO4 and yellow polyps, black line disease and brown jelly in crappy water, there are thevarious chemical battles between corals that I know all about now, never could get Xenia elongata to grow in my tank, yet now I have a plague of pink red sea. I have saved and will soon give back frags of a lot of corals from some of my buddies who lost everything.
How do you save an RTNing head? I didn't know. I busted them up and stuck frags in every different corner of my system to vary the conditions, and most died, but low and behold the ones down in the dark in high flow lived. Now i save wasted corals easily but it cost 90% of that load of coral to figure out where the hotspot was. That is what I am talking about, not wanton killing. I wish nothing ever died on me, but that is not the reality of this.

I would rather talk about things like epoxy and superglue too...